Maybe we need a new way to approach school. I don't think I agree with turning education into a competition where the difficulty is curved towards the most competitive creating a system that became so difficult that students need to edge each other out any way they can.
I guess what I don’t understand is what changed? Is everything homework now? When I was in school, even college, a significant percentage of learning was in class work, pop quizzes, and weekly closed book tests. How are these kids using LLMs so much for class if a large portion of the work is still in the classroom? Or is that just not the case anymore? It’s not like ChatGPT can handwrite an essay in pencil or give an in person presentation (yet).
University was always guided self-learning, at least in the UK. The lecturers are not teachers. The provide and explain material, but they're not there to hand-hold you through it.
University education is very different to what goes on at younger ages. It has to be when a class is 300 rather than 30 people.
Depends on the course. Some are very assignment heavy and some have 2 in person test grades for the entire grade. As a rule, there's more of the former than the latter.
I do agree we should go back to the 90s/00s way of just having weekly quizzes and tests in person though.
But like what if we just had schools present the work. Then the work force was reasonable for testing if a candidate's knowledge was acceptable. This way the onus is on the student. If they don't learn, that's on them. Professors are there to give work and grade in the sense that they challenge students to be critical of their own work. Did they cite, are the arguments logical or poor. Did they meet or exceed expectations. If they cheated.. I think I see the problem. Hmmm not sure I just think maybe school should be less a mill and more about the responsibility of the student and that the workforce is responsible for determining if someone has the skills. We've just really relied on education system for something it isn't. It's really a glorified daycare that business offloaded some responsibility on to
My dad had oral exams, we can go back to that
On his knees?
That was an other occasion, mom gave him a passing grade.
It's not cheating, it's vibe studying
I'm shocked. Shocked! Well, not that shocked.
Ultimately it seems pretty dumb. If you're not going to actually learn while you're there, why bother? University isn't mandatory.
That was actually my biggest disappointment with my degree - the course didn't teach anywhere near enough for my tastes. However I would hope that I was an outlier in that respect!
The certificate is valuable i suppose, lot of job required that cert to even get a glance with the application. After that, they just gonna try their luck with bullshitting and sucking up to their higher up.
Or maybe they just like the university life and doesn't want to look like they're slacking for another few years.
Either way, yikes.
employers often dont check, they look for certificate, x years of experience,,,etc.
only certain jobs require more scrutiny though.
Most people aren't paying for the education. They are paying for the degree. The education they could get for £1.50 in late fees at the library. This is not something new.
University is about a lot more than the piece of paper you get at the end. If it's of any real quality, and you are actually engaged with it, you'll be learning from experts in your chosen field, amongst engaged and eager peers, whilst also being exposed to different viewpoints on everything from what to have for lunch through the latest innovations in your field, and adjacent ones, to the geopolitical state of the world. The people you meet, and the connections you form can, and often do, form the bedrock of your working life from then on.
All of that does make the assumption that you actively engage with university life and those around you. Make friends in different subjects, seek out your professors during office hours and talk to them about their interests, join clubs, do stupid, but ultimately harmless things.
It also assumes you are attending a 'good' university, rather than a profit driven degree mill, and those might be harder to find in some places than others.
Yes they are? Shame on you for doubting the ernestness of students.
Seems like an awful lot of debt to go into for something that's really not that valuable. If the certificate is the goal then a masters or PhD will end up being what's needed and faking your way through undergrad won't do much good.
That was actually my biggest disappointment with my degree - the course didn't teach anywhere near enough for my tastes. However I would hope that I was an outlier in that respect!
From my own experiences, and those of my own social circles, you're in the majority and its not even close. I think a lot of schools are both bad at teaching, and failing to account for the changes in the world since the internet. A lot of schools seem to want to stick to the bare minimum without changing methods or content, which unfortunately makes sense (financially), given capitalism and our current culture around schooling.
No shit. I’m in postsecondary as an instructor and it is so beyond frustrating . They all use it, they don’t want to read or learn.
None of our institutions encourage "learning"; they are built to encourage "making the grade". Why they need the grade and what it represents is irrelevant to students. It's just a barrier that society has placed in front of them.
There needs to be something done about how we, as a society, approach education because whatever we are doing ain't working. It apparently only worked at a very surface level and that was only because A.I. wasn't available yet to be an easy out.
"Get back in that bottle you stupid genie!"
And thats just the ones that were stupid enough to get caught realistically I think this is more like 5% instead of 0.5%
Three magic words - "Open Note Exam"
Students prep their own notes (usually limited to "X pages"), take them into the exam, gets to use them for answering questions.
Tests application and understanding over recall. If students AI their notes, they will be useless.
Been running my exams as open note for 3 years now - so far so good. Students are happy, I don't have to worry about cheating, and the university remains permanently angry because they want everything to be coursework so everyone gets an AI A ^_^
Surprise motherfuckers. Maybe don't give grant money to LLM snakeoil fuckers, and maybe don't allow mass for-profit copyright violations.
Actually caught, or caught with a "ai detection" software?
"Read this document. Was it made with Ai?"
"Yes, it sure was! Great catch!"
"You're wrong, I just wrote it myself 15 minutes ago."
"Teeheehee oopsie! Silly me! I'll try to do better next time then! Is there anything else I can help with?"
this is only going to become more and more of a problem. and honestly, why care at this point? these students aren't going to do well in their fields. let these businesses deal with the incoming wave of ChatGPT-led graduates. the rest of the world uses these LLMs for everything else, why are the students supposed to be any different? students are not going to listen, so fighting against this and expelling everyone seems pointless.
Why fight against it? Because some of these students will be going into jobs that are life-or-death levels of importance and won't know how to do what they're hired to do.
There's nothing wrong with using a large language model to check your essay for errors and clumsy phrasing. There's a lot wrong with trying to make it do your homework for you. If you graduate with a degree indicating you know your field, and you don't actually know your field, you and everyone you work with are going to have a bad time.
It's almost like we shouldn't value the importance of just passing the exam/ writing the paper and revamp our entire approach to teaching
A theoretically correct but practically useless sentiment.
Ditto. A license just means you can pass a test. It doesn’t say anything more than that. That’s why you’re always advised to get 2nd opinions.
Maybe we can get back to workplaces training their employees for the job they want them to do rather than putting the entire cost of training on 18 year oldish high school graduates for a job market that might not even be great (or exist) once they graduate post-secondary.
The output is often really good, even for STEM questions about niche topics.
Exmatriculation that should be
In some regard I don’t think it should be considered cheating. Don’t beat me up yet, I’m old and think AI sucks at most things.
AI typically outputs crap. So why does this use of a new and widely available tech get called out differently?
Using Google (in the don’t be evil timeframe) wasn’t cheating when open book was permitted. Using the text book was cheating on a closed book test. In some cases using a calculator was cheating.
Is it cheating if you write a paper completely on your own and use spell check and grammar check within word? What if a grammarly type extension is used? It’s a slippery slope that advances with technology.
I remember testing and assignments that were designed to make it harder to cheat, show your work, for math type approaches. Quizzes and short essays that make demonstration of the subject matter necessary.
Why doesn’t the education environment adapt to this? For writing assignments, maybe they need to be submitted with revision history so the teacher can see it wasn’t all done in one go via an LLM.
The quick answer responses are somewhat like using Wikipedia for a school paper. Don’t site Wikipedia and don’t use the generated text for anything but a base understanding of the topic. Now go use all the sources these provided, to actually do the assignment.
I agree. This is a paradigm shift, it won't get erased out of use.
Chatgpt output isn't crap anymore. I teach introductory physics at a university and require fully written out homework, showing math steps, to problems that I've written. I wrote my own homework many years ago when chegg blew up and all major textbook problems were on chegg.
Just two years ago, chatgpt wasn't so great at intro physics and math. It's pretty good now, and shows all the necessary steps to get the correct answer.
I do not grade my homework on correctness. Students only need to show me effort that they honestly attempted each problem for full credit. But it's way quicker for students to simply upload my homework pdf to chatgpt and copy down the output than give it their own attempt.
Of course, doing this results in poor exam performance. Anecdotally, my exams from my recent fall semester were the lowest they've ever been. I put two problems on my final that directly came from from my homework, one of them being the problem that made me realize roughly 75% of my class was chatgpt'ing all the homework as chatgpt isn't super great at reading angles from figures, and it's like these students had never even seen a problem like it before.
I'm not completely against the use of AI for my homework. It could be like a tutor that students ask questions to when stuck. But unfortunately that takes more effort than simply typing "solve problems 1 through 5, showing all steps, from this document" into chatgpt.
This is very insightful and provides good perspective.
If I boil it down to take away is that GPT is enough to get through the fundamentals of student material, students can fake competence of the subject up to the cliff they fall off at the test.
This ultimately isn’t preparing them for the world. It’s nearly impossible to catch until it’s too late. The pass or fail options aren’t helping because neither really represents the students best interests.
The call to ban it for school is the only lever we can grasp for is because every other KNOWN option has been tried or assessed.
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