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[-] idiomaddict@lemmy.world 21 points 2 weeks ago

Yeah, I don’t know how to solve the issues of two separate families feeling ownership for the same location (fifty years ago, a Palestinian family including several living members was evicted from a home, and an Israeli couple moved in and then died, leaving their property to their children who played no role in taking the property from the Palestinians), but the solution is not to deport all of the Israelis from the region.

My first instinct would be that the government would need to build a LOT of desirable housing and offer a cash incentive to all current and former residents to cede ownership claims to other properties in exchange for the deed to one of the newer properties, but it immediately occurs to me that the wealth difference between the average Palestinian family and the average Israeli family is probably large enough that there would essentially be a self-selection bias. Especially given the fact that poverty and food insecurity reduce our ability to make good financial decisions.

I can’t think of a resolution for that situation that doesn’t involve someone feeling resentful. I’m not saying they have equal claim- but I know that the descendants of settlers are also people, who don’t want to be evicted from the (stolen) houses in which they were raised, and sowing resentment has not helped the region in the past.

[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world 13 points 2 weeks ago

I mean, eminent domain exists for this reason, but generally, compensation for stolen property is the norm because of the difficulty of dealing with inheritances and the like several steps removed from the original crime.

Recognizing the validity of residency is not the same as recognizing privilege. "You can stay under the same criteria as anyone else, because we aren't here to engage in ethnic cleansing" and "Your property is sacrosanct and cannot be touched under any circumstances" are two different concepts, after all.

[-] idiomaddict@lemmy.world 7 points 2 weeks ago

Oh, there are a thousand ways they could improve their current way of handling it. I just don’t know what the best way would be, though it would definitely involve eminent domain. I guess a lottery system for determining which families get the ancestral home?

I used to take solace in the fact that people smarter than I were in charge of this, so they could do better than that as a solution, but I’m increasingly skeptical that they actually will.

[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world 10 points 2 weeks ago

One of the most horrific things to learn in life is that not only are people in power often shitheads, they're often stupid shitheads as well.

It's... frustrating when examining policy discussions on an academic level.

[-] Saleh@feddit.org 4 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

By this logic Germans would not have had to give back the property that the Nazis robbed from the Jews. This is complete nonsense.

You cannot inherit legally, what was robbed from someone else. The legal ownership belongs to the original owners or their inheritors.

Any Israeli living in a house or on land they robbed, must either leave or buy it from the legitimate owners at a fair price. Irrespective of that the legitimate owners must also be fully compensated for the inability to use their land for all the years it was kept from them.

This is the legal and just way. Any other way invites more crimes and crimes against humanity as it rewards the criminals including by rewarding their descendants.

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[-] njm1314@lemmy.world 12 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

I really don't understand people who think a one state solution is possible anymore. I'm not sure if it ever was but certainly at this point it's not viable.

[-] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 10 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Nothing is "viable" if you just extrapolate the present, except I guess genocide.

To take a step back, moral ambition and political courage are necessary. If Ireland could reach a Good Friday Agreement, if South Africa could overcome apartheid, so can Palestine/Israel.

A plurinational democratic state with equal rights for all, with a truth and reconciliation process, and with strong international support is the only way the middle east can ever reach peace.

And if we are putting on big boy pants and imagining a better world, why not envision the Mediterranean Union becoming a force for democratization and stabilization allowing the free movement of people throughout the region.

When realism is dystopian, fuck realism and pick utopia. Otherwise, why even live?

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[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world 6 points 2 weeks ago

I mean, the situation is so fucked that saying anything is 'viable' at this point is a pipe dream. But I mentioned a one-state solution to emphasize that I'm not asking anyone to be pro-Israel, or even ask that Israel, as a state, should be allowed to continue to exist. My opposition is to advocacy for genocide and ethnic cleansing.

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[-] iAvicenna@lemmy.world 8 points 2 weeks ago

Thanks to Netanyahu and his goonies (such as Trump and Starmer) the word anti-semitist has lost all meaning.

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[-] Gammelfisch@lemmy.world 8 points 2 weeks ago

Albert Einstein is 100% correct. Read his letter to the NY Times.

[-] aceshigh@lemmy.world 4 points 2 weeks ago
[-] IAmNorRealTakeYourMeds@lemmy.world 16 points 2 weeks ago

i think it's this:

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/einstein/1948/12/02.htm

To the Editors of the New York Times:

Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.

The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin's political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.

Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin's behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.

The public avowals of Begin's party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.

Attack on Arab Village

A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants240 men, women, and childrenand kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.

The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.

Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model.

During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.

The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.

Discrepancies Seen

The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a "Leader State" is the goal.

In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin's efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.

The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.

ISIDORE ABRAMOWITZ, HANNAH ARENDT, ABRAHAM BRICK, RABBI JESSURUN CARDOZO, ALBERT EINSTEIN, HERMAN EISEN, M.D., HAYIM FINEMAN, M. GALLEN, M.D., H.H. HARRIS, ZELIG S. HARRIS, SIDNEY HOOK, FRED KARUSH, BRURIA KAUFMAN, IRMA L. LINDHEIM, NACHMAN MAISEL, SEYMOUR MELMAN, MYER D. MENDELSON, M.D., HARRY M. OSLINSKY, SAMUEL PITLICK, FRITZ ROHRLICH, LOUIS P. ROCKER, RUTH SAGIS, ITZHAK SANKOWSKY, I.J. SHOENBERG, SAMUEL SHUMAN, M. SINGER, IRMA WOLFE, STEFAN WOLFE.

New York, Dec. 2, 1948

[-] MetalMachine@feddit.nl 8 points 1 week ago

As long as:

Stolen land is given back, and criminals prosecuted,

Sure.

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[-] DoubleDongle@lemmy.world 7 points 1 week ago

I have never, ever heard of someone calling for the deportation of Israelis. I think anyone who wants that was probably anti-semitic already and has taken the objectively horrific actions of the IDF as a reason to hate Jewish people in general.

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[-] SoftestSapphic@lemmy.world 7 points 2 weeks ago

We've tried a 1 state solution for a long time

It's probably time to start aknowledging the goal of Zionism is to take land from others, and aknowledge that the Zionist have too much influence in politics.

It's either the Zionists go, or we just have to accept that Isreal wants to behave like a fascist colonizer and cut ties

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[-] sknob@lemmy.world 6 points 1 week ago

So many people on the left for whom jew = Zionist = fascist Israeli. It plays right in the hand of all the actual right-wingers and fascists supporting Israel. Appalling and stupid.

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[-] Stern@lemmy.world 6 points 2 weeks ago

Any criticism of the Israeli government, no matter how milquetoast, gets called anti-semitic by defenders, folks shouldn't be shocked when people shrug after a while, say, "guess I'm anti-semitic now", and really let loose.

[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world 18 points 2 weeks ago

Any criticism of the Israeli government, no matter how milquetoast, gets called anti-semitic by defenders, folks shouldn’t be shocked when people shrug after a while, say, “guess I’m anti-semitic now”, and really let loose.

Uh, except for the bit where 'letting loose' is 'revealing that they actually are antisemitic'. I generally assume that people, and especially left-leaning people, aren't antisemitic even if Israel critiques them as such; to find out that a very nonzero amount actually are, and a much larger amount are willing to endorse or tolerate those antisemitic views, is deeply disturbing.

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[-] MITM0@lemmy.world 6 points 2 weeks ago

But do the Israelis WANT to integrate though ?

[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world 7 points 2 weeks ago

No. But neither did the American South.

At some point, reality forces the issue.

[-] Capricorn_Geriatric@lemmy.world 5 points 2 weeks ago

The meme itself is fine.

But shilling a one-state solution with it?

Not cool.

[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world 3 points 2 weeks ago

Wait, what's not cool about a one-state solution?

I'm not opposed to a two-state solution, but generally a one-state solution is considered the more radical option, so I picked it to emphasize that I'm not asking anyone to be pro-Israel.

[-] Capricorn_Geriatric@lemmy.world 4 points 2 weeks ago

I don't know what you thoght when typing up the post, but I do know what I understood when I read it.

A one-state solution is "never" going to work because that's the current solution. There's one state of Israel and no state of Palestine. And currently, Israel hasn't show itself to be all too nice to the palestinians, what with the settling, apartheid and recently as transparent genocide as it gets.

What a one state solution will do is keep the current oppressive power structures. Meaning nothing will truly change. The Israeli press has shown itself to be very anti-Palestinian, and a lot of the population is indoctrinated to think Jews are entitled to settle the land at all costs towards the Palestinians.

There are a lot of examples on YouTube of 'regular' Israelis talking of it in the most gruesome and off-putting words imaginable. One might call it cognitive dissonance, but it's pure indoctrination.

And breaking such indoctrination, cultivated potentialy since the dawn of the sigle state, takes both time and effort.

Effort which is most lukely to succeed were the Palestinians given their own, fully autonomus, UN-recognized and in all aspects equal state free from Israeli control of all types.

Why?

Because Israel has shown itself to be unworthy of having authority over Palestinians.

Systematic oppression needs an equally systematic way of undoing it. Any attepmts at molding the current power structures are unlikely to stop the mistreatment of Palestinians.

The current Israel was and continues to be a one-state solution. A failed solution, that lead to the current genocide. The only way in which such a solution would work is through radical changes to the power structures of the current State, or a new one altogether. One with new laws, a new government, artificially made to overrepresent Palestinians to try to undo the equally artificial, but ingrained in Israeli society opression of them.

Previous such solutions have had a very bad success rate. Such an artificial state is truly like a house of cards. A bad compromise. Neither side is happy for a long time - both feel entitled to more than they get.

So in my humble opinion, one could say that Israel has been given a chance to govern the Palestinians. What they ended up doing is commiting systematic opression a d as of late, a very transparent genocide against them.

If you ask me, any goodwill they've gotten to that end was rescinded as of late, and anything less than a two-state solution will be rewarding the perpetrators.

Obligatorily: I'm not saying that Israelis are all genocidal maniacs, or activelly commiting genocide. But the state, their state, is. And such a state cannot reasonably be expected to stop of its own accord or by a finger-wag from the UN. Since the figer-wagging has been done consistently for quite some time now, way before the recent escalations.

[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world 5 points 2 weeks ago

A one-state solution is “never” going to work because that’s the current solution.

Again, that's not what "one-state solution" means. "One-state solution" necessarily implies, for one, that there is a current problem in need of a solution; it would be extremely strange to say "The solution to the problem is the status quo."

When people say "One-state solution", they generally mean a single state encompassing all of Palestine and Israel with equal rights.

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[-] finitebanjo@lemmy.world 5 points 1 week ago

Oh we out here making friends in these comment sections today.

[-] fodor@lemmy.zip 4 points 1 week ago

Unfortunately, the term "antisemitic" no longer has any kind of fixed meaning. I wish that weren't true, and I think it's a combination of forces that decided to misuse the word for several decades, that have now led to it being meaningless.

And you might be tempted to tell me what you think it means, and maybe I could agree with you, but when I turn on the TV tomorrow someone else will be using it in a totally different way that's inconsistent. Actually I'm kidding. I don't have a TV.

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[-] confluence@lemmy.world 4 points 1 week ago

Israel is the most anti-Jewish state since Nazi Germany, and Palestinians are semitic.

[-] phoenixz@lemmy.ca 4 points 2 weeks ago

I get the sentiment and I'd agree, but it would be so much easier if not over half the Israeli population is now supporting a genocide. You think they know better, of all people

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[-] Bwaz@lemmy.world 3 points 2 weeks ago

Though I see few anti-semitic remarks, other than the ones about Palestinians.

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this post was submitted on 06 Jul 2025
143 points (86.7% liked)

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