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submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by Hypersapien@lemmy.world to c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world

What are cis and trans alternate types of? I don't think it's "gender identity" because wouldn't that just be man, woman or nonbinary regardless of whether they're cis or trans? Cis/trans just being a qualifier?

If the answer is "I am cis" or "I am trans", what is the question?

Edit: Someone came up with the term "gender congruity" and (after looking up the definition of "congruity") I think this describes what I'm talking about perfectly.

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[-] fubo@lemmy.world 46 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

To a first approximation, they describe the match or mismatch between a person's gender identity and their assigned gender at birth (AGAB).

"Cis" = "my gender identity matches my assigned gender at birth"
"Trans" = "my gender identity does not match my assigned gender at birth"

The question being asked is, "Given that when you were born they thought of you as a (boy/girl); are you now expressing or experiencing a (male/female) gender, or a (female/male) one?"

Logically speaking, this is an xor operation; it asks if two things are the same or different. If boolean variable a represents your AGAB and boolean variable b represents your gender identity, then "are you trans?" is a xor b — is your AGAB different from your gender identity?

Again, this is to a first approximation. There are people who don't fit binary labels, and so an xor operation on binary labels doesn't fit them either.

[-] mcherm@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

I like the way you express this. "Cis / Trans" isn't about your gender, it's about whether your gender has CHANGED. (Although it may not be your GENDER that changed, but what people THOUGHT your gender was.)

In a similar way, I (a cis male) usually call myself "straight", but that's not really accurate. I don't feel like I'm attracted to whatever gender is different from mine (which happens to be women); I feel like I am attracted to women (which happens to be the gender that's different from mine).

Putting it differently, if some magical spell were to transform me into a woman, I don't imagine that I would then be attracted to men, I imagine that I would be attracted to women. So instead of calling myself "straight", I should probably be saying that I am "gynosexual" (attracted to women).

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[-] ulu_mulu@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Finally a "down to earth" explanation I can fully understand, thank you!

[-] nomadjoanne@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Hahaha. A nice and appropriately nerdy explanation. Very nice.

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[-] wagesj45@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago

I think the confusion is coming from the fact that cis and trans really only have context of an expectation. In this case, it would be the expectation of society.

You are correct that if you identify as a woman or a man, you are a woman or man. If you have a penis, or a vagina, or some mix or lack of those, then those are just parts of your body and that isn't really up to interpretation.

In broad strokes, society expects your body parts (penis, vagina) to correspond to how you identify (man, woman). Humans are kind of just built this way. Our brains take a lot of shortcuts and categorize the world around us. It is statistically likely that if you have a penis, you identify as a man.

As we've evolved as a society, we have come to understand and recognize that these statistically likely correlations not always hold up (it's just likely, not a guarantee, after all). So cis and trans are descriptors of whether or not the correlation between your gender identity and your physical characteristics match (cis) or don't match (trans) society's expectations.

[-] FinnFooted@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Cis and trans are terms that came before their application to gender identity. I learned themin organic chemistry in reference to chemical isomers.

Wikipedia: The prefixes "cis" and "trans" are from Latin: "this side of" and "the other side of", respectively.

As applied to gender, "this side of" you are the gender of the sex you were born as. "The other side of" means you have switched your gender to the other side of the sex from which you were born.

Edit: to answer your question more directly, your gender is cis or trans of the sex you were born as. The question you ask for is: "is your gender cis or trans of your sex?"

[-] BurntPunk@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

This is the correct answer to the question that was asked by OP.

Well said.

[-] MrShelbySan@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

Please note I’m typing this as a trans man. Being “cis” or “trans” stems from someone’s gender.

Basically, do you identify as your birth gender (not sex, gender and sex are different)? If the answer is yes, you are “cis”. If the answer is no, like I my case, I was born female, I identify as a male, then you are are trans.

I hope this answers your question.

[-] Spzi@lemmy.click 1 points 1 year ago

Basically, do you identify as your birth gender (not sex, gender and sex are different)?

The additional explanation actually confused me. Let's compare the two sentences:

  • A) Basically, do you identify as your birth gender?

  • B) Basically, do you identify as your birth sex?

I assume biological sex can be identified by looking at your body as a new born baby, and gender is usually inferred accordingly. So I would assume new borns are being assigned a gender which mathes their biology, although they probably don't have any opinions themselves on the topic.

Anyways, what's the difference between A and B? I feel you felt it was important to point it out, and I just can't see any.

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[-] RBWells@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

I think it's an alignment, like parallel vs. perpendicular.

If you identify with your sex at birth, whatever it is, your identity is aligned with your biological sex at birth, that is called Cisgender. Parallel.

If your gender identity is not aligned with your biological sex at birth, it is at an angle to it, perhaps perpendicular (you were a boy baby but are a woman) perhaps a different angle (perhaps were born a girl and are non-binary). Anything other than that parallel alignment is thrown into the Trans bucket, but particularly the perpendicular arrangements.

[-] AlmightySnoo@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

I don't think any of you read his question.

[-] jeffjefferson@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

If you're so smart answer the question. I bet you can't because the way it's worded makes no sense.

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[-] michikade@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Cisgender means the person has a gender identity that matches the sex they were assigned at birth.

If you are a man and you were assigned male at birth, you are cis.

If you are a man and you were assigned female at birth, you are trans.

Non-binary can mean anything from not having a strong specifically male or female identity to closer to switching identities (bi-gender falls closer into this) to just having a lot of serious fluidity, but typically speaking at least part of the time the identity doesn’t match the assigned sex at birth.

[-] TitanLaGrange@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

You can think of 'cis' and 'trans' as meaning roughly 'this side' and 'other side'.

In a gender context the 'sides' are male and female and the items are physical gender and mental gender. If both genders are on the same side, both on 'this side', that's 'cis'. If they are different, one 'this side', one 'other side', that's 'trans'.

So, if the answer is "I am cis/trans" the question is "Is your mental gender the same as your physical gender?" "I am cis" then means "My mental gender is the same as my physical gender" and "I am trans" means "My mental gender is not the same as (or maybe 'is opposite') my physical gender".

Note that 'physical gender' is not always clear. Some people are born with ambiguous genitalia and may be surgically altered to make their genitalia more closely resemble the commonly recognized pattern for 'male' or 'female', and some may be left as-is. In some cases this can be a reason for a trans gender identity.

[-] Ertebolle@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

You can think of 'cis' and 'trans' as meaning roughly 'this side' and 'other side'.

Before “cisgender” became a widely publicized term, about the only time I ever heard the term “cis” was discussing Cisalpine versus Transalpine Gaul in ancient Rome. (Cisalpine Gaul being northern Italy and Transalpine Gaul southern France, more or less - the parts of Gaul that were on the same side or the opposite side of the Alps from Rome).

[-] IHeartBadCode@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

Chemistry. Cis-2-n-ene vs Trans-2-n-ene. First one is all carbons on the same side and the latter is carbons on opposite sides.

[-] KawaiiKurai@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

That is how I remember it as well. A picture for those that wants to understand quickly:

but-2-ene

For those not well versed in organic chemistry or needs a refresher, where it is the most likely scenario you would encounter such terms, let me clarify a few points:

  1. The -ene suffix indicates there is a double bond in the compound

  2. The -2- indicates that the double bond is on the 2nd carbon, between carbon 2 and 3 (beta position). The placement of the n in the above post is incorrect as the location should be beside the functional group, hence the example should have been "-n-2-ene"

  3. The -n- is a variable for the length of the carbon (e.g. prop- (3 C), but- (4 C), pent- (5 C), hex- (6 C), etc.).

  4. Due to symmetry, you do not see the cis/trans-isomers (aka E/Z and syn/anti) unless until there is at least 4 carbons.

Hence, the easiest way to demonstrate this, is to show but-2-ene

but-2-ene

Due to priority, the cis/trans is based on the relative position of the alkyl group rather than hydrogen in this compound (review the IUPAC naming system if you want THAT refresher)

A cis-but-2-ene has the C1 and C4 (alkyls to the left and right of the beta double bond respectively) are on the same side.

Trans-but-2-ene has C1 and C4 on opposite sides.

Hope that helps clarify matters for people. If not, look up the topic on your favorite search engine. I highly recommend checking out the Wikipedia entry first though as it may resolve it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/But-2-ene

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cis-trans_isomerism

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[-] match@pawb.social 2 points 1 year ago

gender chirality . gender isomerism. gender topology

[-] Woozy@lemmy.fmhy.ml 2 points 1 year ago

My topology is a tube with appendages. Ultimately, humans (like all chordates) are convoluted toroids.

[-] badgerific@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

I agree with what you're stating and I hope that that's where we are headed - there just being man, woman, and non-binary gender identities. For now though, as I see it, cis/trans become relevant in three ways (off the top of my head):

  1. Medical situations - self explanatory
  2. In pursuance of romantic/sexual relations - society is still at the stage where the visual perception of a person lead to certain presumptions. Not everyone may be okay with dating/having sex with a person who has different genitalia than they presumed that their partner would have.
  3. [This point is my personal opinion] The visibility of people openly owning their journey can be a source of information, give courage to others who are undergoing the same journey and are scared or confused. I knew about my orientation way before I realized that there's a term for it or that their are others like me.

I hope I got your query right.

[-] BendyLemmy@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

CIS is simply opposite of TRANS - they simply describe someone's identity in terms of their physiology.

Confusion rises, somewhat, when you factor in masculinity/femininity to the equation - but basically 'trans' means that having a dick doesn't mean you're a man... 'cis' means that being a man means you have a penis.

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[-] Ciari@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago

They're adjectives. Just like "tall" or "smart" or "young".

The question would just be "are you cis or trans?", there's not a specific word or term that you'd use.

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[-] mush@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Cis and trans aren't opposites.

You can be both at the same time, or neither. A cis woman prints as a woman to observers; she night also be (or not be) trans.

[-] Hypersapien@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

I never suggested they were opposites. Elsewhere in this thread I listed white, black and asian as examples of a person's race.

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this post was submitted on 24 Jun 2023
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