Are The Amish Bourgeoisie? (upload.wikimedia.org)

submitted 10 months ago by AlpineSteakHouse@hexbear.net to c/chapotraphouse@hexbear.net

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What about Amish Butter?

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[-] EmmaGoldman@hexbear.net 43 points 10 months ago

I am once again asking leftists to not use "bourgeois" as a blanket term for all bad things. The bourgeoisie is bad, but that doesn't mean all things that are bad are therefore bourgeois. The bourgeoisie is specifically the social class that owns the means of production under capitalism

[-] comrade_pibb@hexbear.net 27 points 10 months ago

Missing my bus in the morning is bourgeoisie

[-] AlpineSteakHouse@hexbear.net 3 points 10 months ago

So you would say that amish butter is bourgeoisie AND bad?

I use it because I think it's easier than stick butter but if it's anti-communist I'll switch.

[-] EmmaGoldman@hexbear.net 5 points 10 months ago

It's good butter folks

[-] Dirt_Owl@hexbear.net 35 points 10 months ago

It must be horrible as hell to be a woman or a child in an Amish community.

[-] TerminalEncounter@hexbear.net 34 points 10 months ago

Amish comes from the Anabaptist movement during the 30 years war and after, they tried to opt out of capitalism and got fucking merced over and over until eventually they just moved to the new world. They believed in the real force of evil capitalism is and was, as one Matt Christman called it the Demiurge or Satan, and tried to actually live the way Jesus and the Bible said to - communally, loving their neighbours, and peacefully. And for that they were oppressed and killed

Now modern ones still ended up getting their social relations fucked up by capitalism because there is no escape except revolution so yeah they're fucked up now

[-] Flyberius@hexbear.net 15 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I read this series of books called Shardlake, about a lawyer in Henry VIII's court. The last two or three books increasingly feature anabaptists and their hopes to live as Jesus intended, holding all goods in common. It is treated quite sympathetically, and Shardlake, who is increasingly alienated by the status quo as the books progress, finds himself sympathising with them more and more. Unfortunately the author seems to have been very sick over the last few years, so I don't know if he will ever finish the series.

Anyway, it was pleasant to see some revolutionary struggle in those books as it was totally unexpected.

[-] buckykat@hexbear.net 9 points 10 months ago

loving their neighbors and beating their wives, fuck the amish

[-] alcoholicorn@hexbear.net 29 points 10 months ago

dubois-depressed Are women bourgeoisie?

[-] buh@hexbear.net 13 points 10 months ago

bourgeoisie and the pussycats

[-] bubbalu@hexbear.net 26 points 10 months ago

The amish are a strange feudal holdout.

[-] Tachanka@hexbear.net 5 points 10 months ago

I would say they're not feudal since they don't practice serfdom or serve under a living monarch. They are in fact anabaptists who have their origins in the early protestant reformation. What made anabaptists unique when they first came about was their rather subversive (for the time) idea that baptizing infants was meaningless and one was only truly Christian if they consented to baptism once they were old enough to know what baptism meant. If anything, I would say the protestant reformation was part of the larger geopolitical shift in Europe that led from from feudalism to Capitalism, but I wouldn't characterize being Amish as inherently "feudal" or "capitalist." They are deeply religious and communal and live an agrarian and patriarchal lifestyle, which is aesthetically similar to feudalism in many ways, but is not feudal in the economic sense that Marx uses the term when describing the feudal mode of production.

[-] Parsani@hexbear.net 15 points 10 months ago

Petty bourgeois land owners

[-] Wheaties@hexbear.net 14 points 10 months ago

Don't they still work their own land? Unless they're hiring other people to work the land for them, I don't think they could be considered bourgeois, petty or otherwise.

[-] Parsani@hexbear.net 15 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I was half joking, but if I had to defend this a bit: generally they run small businesses on their property. Employing their own family (and community/extended family) to work for them, generally organized around patriarchal relations and likely lots child labor (but that is the norm for anyone who ever grown up on a farm).

It's like the penultimate example of the type of households that produce Freudian repression in these kinds of familial, economic and religious relations.

Ngl, they do seem to have a communal relation that the typical western family unit doesn't. I know it's not Amish, but the huterites IIRC basically hold all property in common which is cool. Repression of women and strict gender/sexual norm/division not so cool though.

So are Amish Perry bourgeois, probably not, but they share features. Petty commodity producers then? Idk I'm sleepy and talking out of my ass a bit. Did know some Amish people a while ago though, and the gender stuff is bad.

[-] American_Badass@hexbear.net 9 points 10 months ago

Well said. I live close to some Amish and a ton of old order Mennonites. I've seen one too many children's stools in front of rocket stoves and suspiciously young girls with babies.

Generally seem to provide for the other members of their community, but the organization of that community isn't great. And that's what I know about them, which is little given how insular they are.

I did have a sit down meeting with a Mennonite business owner about doing a website for his company, which was one of the strangest encounters of my life.

No electricity in their homes, but I guess for businesses they break that rule?

[-] heyoheyoheyyyy@hexbear.net 7 points 10 months ago

afaik "the english" (that's you) are allowed to do that kind of technology for them as long as they themselves are not doing it. and then they also have some basic electrical stuff (lights esp.) and will use off-grid power sources for them and such. it's iirc more of a glacial pace of adoption rather than a total ban

[-] American_Badass@hexbear.net 5 points 10 months ago

It's probably useful to differentiate between Amish and Mennonite here. Mennonites I know use mad technology for business, including planes. The Mennonite homes I've been in (not many, but a couple), did not have electricity in them, and had root cellars, oil lamps, etc.

An Amish dude did some windows for me and I didn't see any vehicles at his home, and used hand tools, near as I could tell. But idk, this probably changes so much between different communities and shit. Every time I go to town to get groceries, I see Mennonites in aldi. I don't believe I've seen Amish there. The only interactions I've had with the Amish I had to drive to them.

Always slightly uncomfortable.

[-] heyoheyoheyyyy@hexbear.net 2 points 10 months ago

very good point and to clarify on my post my experiences are primarily w Amish people so any anecdotes i have are with them and not Mennonites.

[-] EmmaGoldman@hexbear.net 6 points 10 months ago

All Amish are allowed to use battery-powered devices but not grid power. Most are allowed to use diesel generators. There's a very real possibility in the coming decades that they become the world's primary users of alkaline batteries which is very funny to me.

[-] came_apart_at_Kmart@hexbear.net 4 points 10 months ago

i know mennonite communities with cellphones and amish with enterprise grade photocopiers (for maintaining ag records and 3rd party auditing).

among the Plain Communities, Mennonite communities tend to use more technology, but ultimately the adoption and use of any technology is decided upon by the community on a case-by-case basis. i.e. having a phone+phone line available for community emergencies, adoption of certain kinds of equipment for production. there's always an internal, community logic to the decisions.

it's interesting to see and compare to capitalist modernity / consumer culture where every bozo is told by a screen or a sales engineer to want the latest planned obsolescence gizmo or fuel-eating treatmaker. it's not perfect or even always good, but it is a process that bypasses a lot of bullshit.

[-] CliffordBigRedDog@hexbear.net 7 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Petty bourgeois

i thought the definition of petty bourgeois are land/capital owners who do have to labour somewhat like shopkeepers or independent farmers in this case

[-] spectre@hexbear.net 2 points 10 months ago

The cool thing is that it's not very well defined! I feel like these are interesting distinctions that each need a term:

large business owners/shareholders/executives with close political connections/influence
small/medium business owners/investors with extravagant wealth, some state or regional political connections.
small business owners
working small business owners with a handful of employees
working small business owners with no employees
professionals
independent professionals
independent professionals with employees
managers

I've heard "petit-bourgeois" used to refer to more than one of these (some of them I just threw in there myself)

[-] Wheaties@hexbear.net 1 points 10 months ago

large business owners/shareholders/executives with close political connections/influence

small/medium business owners/investors with extravagant wealth, some state or regional political connections.

small business owners <<petit-bourgeois

working small business owners with a handful of employees <<semi-permeable membrane

working small business owners with no employees <<owner-operators and artisans

professionals

independent professionals

independent professionals with employees <<weird

managers

[-] spectre@hexbear.net 2 points 10 months ago

I could live with that

[-] Frank@hexbear.net 13 points 10 months ago

I don't think so? They're very weird though, but i think they're isolated enough from any mainstream politics to not really count. They're so confined to their won weird little thing I can't see them having a role in broader politics.

[-] Tachanka@hexbear.net 3 points 10 months ago

There are business owners among the Amish, but their communal mode of living makes their production practices resemble artisanship more than anything.