French military has determined that Ukraine used a US-made Patriot missile on plane carrying Ukrainian POWs – AP (archive.ph)

submitted 9 months ago by darkcalling@lemmygrad.ml to c/worldnews@lemmygrad.ml

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The French military has concluded that Ukrainian forces used an American-supplied Patriot air defense system to shoot down a Russian plane carrying prisoners of war, an official told the Associated Press on Friday. Russian investigators have reached the same verdict.

The plane, a Russian Il-76, was shot down over Belgorod Region last Wednesday while carrying 65 captured Ukrainian servicemen who were set to take part in a prisoner swap later that day. All of the POWs, as well as three Russian officers and six crew members, died in the crash.

A French military official told the Associated Press that a Patriot air defense battery was used to target the plane from around 50 kilometers away. Ukrainian forces surreptitiously moved the battery into range before turning on its radar “just long enough to hit [the plane],” the official said.

With an initial search of the crash site suggesting that a French missile may have been used to commit the attack, sources within the French military have already been telling the media for more than a week that the missile involved was American.

In a report released on Thursday, Russia’s Investigative Committee concluded that the plane was brought down using two MIM-104A surface-to-air missiles launched from a Patriot battery near the Ukrainian village of Liptsy. Liptsy is located in Kharkov Region, around 10km from the Russian border.

Missile fragments found at the blast site bore English-language inscriptions, which revealed that the two projectiles were from a batch made in the 1980s. One piece read “Raytheon,” a reference to the US arms maker that jointly designed the Patriot system.

Following the Investigative Committee’s report, a source within Russia’s security services told TASS that it is very likely that there were American specialists among the crew operating the system.

(non-archive source: https://www.rt.com/russia/591734-france-ukraine-patriot-missile/ )

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[-] D61@hexbear.net 34 points 9 months ago

Wait... so the UKR burned a very expensive piece of ordinance to shoot down an ... checks notes... unarmed transport aircraft?

Way to go guys! Slava Ukrania /snark

[-] lorty@lemmygrad.ml 32 points 9 months ago

Carrying their POWs being moved for a prisoner exchange.

[-] Mzuark@lemmygrad.ml 20 points 9 months ago

They shot down there own people and it was more than likely intentional.

[-] darkcalling@lemmygrad.ml 16 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

According to Russian sources it is speculated they believed there were some high ranking Russian military officials on-board who they wanted to kill in violation of international laws regarding these kinds of things. Most likely the US approved it. Maybe Russia never intended to send those officials, maybe they intentionally leaked to a suspected or known CIA mole that such officials would be there to attempt to identify the person or to try and goad the Ukro-nazis into doing this and if so it unsurprisingly worked.

That or Russia intended to have such officials and either through a stroke of luck they backed out or were called away or they got a tip from their own intelligence that Ukraine/US were planning a move there.

Once again, the US has rules for thee, not for me and my "moderate rebels".

[-] MarxMadness@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 9 months ago

Didn't even need to be anyone important on it for the U.S. to want it downed. The U.S. wants to fight to the last Ukranian; torpedoing good faith diplomatic efforts like prisoner exchanges makes perfect sense for them.

[-] LeniX@lemmygrad.ml 18 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Is there a corresponding article from the AP, though?

[-] RISC_Xi@hexbear.net 10 points 9 months ago

They dont link it directly

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-plane-crash-prisoners-exchange-d1d66509bdf26af0735a93fd275f32e8

Some Western intelligence assessments have suggested the plane was shot down by a missile from Ukraine, although they could not confirm the presence of POWs on board.

A French military official told The Associated Press that the country’s military concluded that Ukrainian forces used a battery of Patriot surface-to-air missiles to shoot down the Il-76, firing from about 50 kilometers (about 30 miles) away.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to divulge the intelligence findings, said the Ukrainian battery apparently managed to stay hidden while getting closer to the target and then switched on its radar “just long enough to hit them.”

Another Western official also said the plane was downed by “a missile strike rather than any kind of mechanical failure,” and it’s almost certain the missile was fired from Ukrainian territory. The official said “it’s not yet clear” whether it was carrying Ukrainian POWs.

[-] PoY@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

not yet clear if the remains of 70 people were in fact POWs.. we're trying to piece them back together to check

[-] SpaceDogs@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

NAFO is trying to say there’s no evidence of POWs and in reality the aircraft was carrying a bunch of missiles so in the end shooting down that plane was a big win.

[+] raunz@mander.xyz -31 points 9 months ago

Supposedly carrying POWs.

While "[The II-76] was developed to deliver heavy machinery to remote, poorly served areas".

[-] BynarsAreOk@hexbear.net 58 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Are you joking? A few days ago the dipshit Ukrainian nazis were claiming the Russians shot down their own plane, you know because they're just evil like that. I don't suppose you're hoping for the investigators to grab and show you 70 Ukrainian skulls and measure them with scalps just to prove the point either hopefully.

[+] raunz@mander.xyz -25 points 9 months ago

I'm serious.

Ukrainian media outlet Suspilne analyzed the list and confirmed that most of the names were previously mentioned as being POWs or missing persons, and that some had appeared in captivity in Russian propaganda videos.

“We found Ukrainian citizens in the list who have already been previously exchanged," Lubinets said.

source

[-] notceps@hexbear.net 55 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Walk me through this then.

I'm russia I'll send a plane to Ukraine with no one on it, though I'll claim that this plane is for a prisoner exchange. I know that the Ukranians are going to shoot down that plane because reasons.

What do I do when that plane doesn't get shot down? Like what do I do if it lands and the supposed prisoners are not on board?

And the whole 'this was a prisoner exchange plane' is confirmed by both sides. Ukranians said quite literally after this happened "There was supposed to be a prisoner exchange happening today after this [the plane shotdown] it is no longer happening"

Edit: Also media has lied, hell governments lie, why are the ukranians unable to lie, after they've been lying about all other things like remember the rocket that killed two polish farmers and how everyone fell over themselves because ukr said wasn't theirs and then it turned out it was theirs instead of this weirdo theory that russia was able to put an s-300 inside western ukraine to shoot at a random farm in poland to cause strive or some shit like that?

[+] raunz@mander.xyz -26 points 9 months ago

Basically all I'm saying is there's no proof (nor evidence) that POWs were on board as the plane got shot down. Therefore RT shouldn't claim that "The plane, a Russian Il-76, was shot down over Belgorod Region last Wednesday while carrying 65 captured Ukrainian servicemen".

Also Ukraine called Russia’s narrative into question and demanded an international investigation, which Moscow refused.

[-] notceps@hexbear.net 42 points 9 months ago

Again stop this just think about it, if Russia has no one on board what are they going to do if the plane doesn't get shot down. Like you are literally just shooting at a wall then drawing a bullseye around it, ukraine can't be at fault so let me create a scenario where they didn't shoot POWs. I'll repeat it again if Ukraine doesn't shoot down this one plane that for all they know is carrying POWs then this plane would land at the exchange place and the ukrainian side could just see that no one was on the plane and they could accuse russia of baiting an international scene of all kinds of things really. This is just not a thing russia is going to do unless they 100% know that it will get shot down which would mean that they already have tons of people working for them on the ukranian side and if they did why would they shoot down a plane with a patriot missile system instead of just destroying it.

If you apply just a tiny bit of logic all theories it all falls apart when the plan doesn't go as planned and I think at this point Russia knows that a plan doesn't always go the way they want it to.

Again I don't care what the ukrainian government says they to this day don't claim responsibility for the rocket that killed two polish farmers after pretty much every western nation told them "This one was yours." they just continued to say "Nuh uh" and you are still going "Well I don't know guys I'll just trust them on this one tho" do you need to trust what the russians say? No, but you can just try to think this through and come to the conclusion that ukrainians shot down a plane carrying ukrainian POWs.

[-] GaryLeChat@lemmygrad.ml 25 points 9 months ago

Based on the proof available to me from your comments, you should stretch your brain every morning lest you pull something from these mental gymnastics you're performing.

[-] ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net 46 points 9 months ago

In 2002, American media outlets analyzed aerial photos of big metal tubes in the desert and confirmed that Saddam Hussein was definitely building nuclear missiles. How did that turn out, and what can be learned from it?

[+] raunz@mander.xyz -30 points 9 months ago

Media outlets confirmed that Saddam Hussein was definitely building nuclear missiles? I'm not sure that's what actually happend. But regardless: There's no reason to believe in anything without conclusive evidence or proof.

[-] ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net 44 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Literally from Wikipedia

-On September 8, 2002, Michael R. Gordon and Judith Miller published a story in the New York Times titled "U.S. Says Hussein Intensifies Quest for A-Bomb Parts":

In the last 14 months, Iraq has sought to buy thousands of specially designed aluminum tubes, which American officials believe were intended as components of centrifuges to enrich uranium. American officials said several efforts to arrange the shipment of the aluminum tubes were blocked or intercepted but declined to say, citing the sensitivity of the intelligence, where they came from or how they were stopped. The diameter, thickness and other technical specifications of the aluminum tubes had persuaded American intelligence experts that they were meant for Iraq's nuclear program, officials said, and that the latest attempt to ship the material had taken place in recent months. The attempted purchases are not the only signs of a renewed Iraqi interest in acquiring nuclear arms.

You're flailing here dude, just take the L and quit JAQing off on behalf of Nazis

[-] nat_turner_overdrive@hexbear.net 35 points 9 months ago

I'm not sure that's what actually happend. But regardless

"I'm not sure this fact is true, I won't do any research about it, now let me tell you more about what I think"

you are a clown

[-] Aru@lemmygrad.ml 44 points 9 months ago

??? The IL76 is also used to transport humans, here's a bunch of crasehs involved with it, most of them have passenger casualities

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Accidents_and_incidents_involving_the_Ilyushin_Il-76

[-] The_Walkening@hexbear.net 8 points 9 months ago

Yes, you can outfit planes for more than one purpose and they were commonly used for troop transport.

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