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submitted 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) by Arenge@hexbear.net to c/chapotraphouse@hexbear.net

Shouldn't have said anything, now I'm getting paragraphs upon paragraphs about Putler and how the West has a moral obligation to prolong the war in Ukraine for as long as possible sad-boi

Also while apparently it can't be denied that the far right has grown somewhat stronger in Ukraine, the Ukrainian military had to rely on militias such as Azov so they wouldn't lose, we should not worry because they haven't seen that much electoral success

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[-] carpoftruth@hexbear.net 16 points 7 months ago

I find it helpful to distinguish between the ukrainian state under the zelensky regime, other state-like forces in ukraine like their fascist militia, the ukrainian citizenry broadly, and the people of eastern ukraine/donbass/Crimea. If you just lump all of those groups together as "ukraine" it is harder to have a coherent analysis of the situation because each of those groups have distinct interests and incentives. I've gotten libs to engage with those distinctions before by talking about different levels of government/regions of my own country, highlighting places where the federal government does things that don't align with my interests.

The concept of indivisible security is useful to discuss in the context of nato/US v Russian relations as well. Again, this relates to incentives of the different parties.

All this to say, I have a lot of sympathy for the ukrainian populace at large, especially those in the east most directly affected by the war. I have less sympathy for the formal ukrainian state and their roll of the dice/being led down the garden path by the US, and I have no sympathy for fascists.

[-] Kaplya@hexbear.net 14 points 7 months ago

With all the details leaked (or rather, reported) by very credible sources about the peace negotiations that was deliberately sabotaged by London and Washington, it has become very difficult to attribute the large part of criminal responsibility to any parties other than these two.

[-] ThomasMuentzner@hexbear.net 16 points 7 months ago

send him this back , and ask him if he considers Propaganda a thing thats only happens to OTHER people ?

[-] Gosplan14_the_Third@hexbear.net 12 points 7 months ago

I love how nobody considers any alternatives to supporting one of the sides in the war - either supporting Ukraine because something something democracy, human rights and Putler or support Russia because multipolarity, denazification and NATO expansion.

I only know of one such initiative - the split of the group "Communist Organisation" from Germany which aligned with the Greek Communist Party created a campaign to give financial support for various communist groups in Ukraine and Russia they had contacts with. It was cautious and didn't really go anywhere.

But at least it existed. Why support either side beyond acting like a foreign minister in the 1970s? Where's the proletarian internationalism?

It'd be more productive than the dead end we're in, at the mercy of whatever which state does or doesn't.

[-] thetaT@hexbear.net 8 points 7 months ago

Remember - Lenin never supported any side in WW1. In fact, he hoped for an enemy victory, as that would create the conditions for a revolution.

Picking sides in an inter-imperialist war is anti-Lenin.

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[-] ziggurter@hexbear.net 6 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Sure. Wherever you live, organize around pushing for your own country (and/or those it has influence with) to back down. War between nation-states is universally war against the working class everywhere.

If you live in Russia, organize around getting Russia to back away and stop expanding the front (though yeah: good luck with that at this point...).

If you live in the U.S. or any Western country, organize around going hands-off and halting the shipment of weapons and halting expansion of NATO.

If you live in Ukraine, organize around pushing for diplomacy, an end to conscription, and all the state repression that's been aimed at anyone speaking up against the war, against NATO membership, against fascists' role in governance and policing and war-making, etc.

Either way, push for a diplomatic end to the meat grinding. Ceasefire, ceasefire, ceasefire. Under any conditions whatsoever, really. Doesn't matter where the fucking national borders finally wind up on a map. Ceasefire. Doesn't matter who last did whatever strike or terrorist act or whatever. Ceasefire. Doesn't matter who said what racist nonsense about whose mother. Ceasefire.

All other problems can and will be solved by us, outside of the "solutions" of (especially neoliberal) nation-states. We will deal with the fascists. We will deal with systemic racism and state-oppression of various ethnicities, etc. We will deal with reaction against the left, labor, and the working class. No war but class war.

In any Western country, of course, this will be interpreted as "pro-Russia". LOL. It's bullshit, of course, but that's the shit leftists have always had to deal with. Especially when fighting on the anti-war, anti-imperialism front.

[-] DamarcusArt@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 7 months ago

Just one? Lucky you. My entire IRL friend group is full of those types. China haters too. I'm not supposed to "talk politics" with some of my friends because it makes them mad (Because they can't refute anything I say and they get embarrassed by how little they actually know about the topic). But if I want to hang out with my semi-cool friends, I have to hang out with my far less cool friends as well.

[-] Egon@hexbear.net 4 points 7 months ago

That sucks. Do you know what you're going to do about it?

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this post was submitted on 09 Apr 2024
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chapotraphouse

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