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[-] maegul@lemmy.ml 215 points 1 year ago

It feels like the big elephant in the room about shorter work weeks and more remote work is that lower level employee productivity is not the issue with them (likely at all).

And it isn't even that managers and higher-ups have some biases against such schemes (which they certainly do).

It's that such schemes put a clearer focus on the actual role managers and higher-ups are supposed to be performing, namely organising employees and their tasks and priorities into coherent and well-planned projects. Managers are, on average, not actually good at this. And the problem is systemic ... the average work culture doesn't have a good sense of what this looks like. Instead, there are "glue people" all over the place, working beyond their roles to fill in the gaps and keep things together.

But, with a less "monolithic", co-located and co-active workforce, the need for actual coordination beyond "do the things! LFG!!" becomes very real, and very anxious for people who either don't know how to do that or don't want the world to find out that things were actually working fine in spite of their inability to do it. A remote and discretely scheduled workforce necessarily asks accountability questions like "who is responsible for planning this?" and "this isn't my responsibility, you need to get someone else to do it" etc.

Managers and higher-ups aren't comfortable with their actual value being scrutinised more closely. And in many ways, it's actually understandable ... as they likely don't know the answer themselves.

[-] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com 51 points 1 year ago

I think this was actually the first time someone put it this way and me reading it. I felt this way for years but never did I actually stop and think about this in such a manner. Maybe also because it is discouraged to talk about it.

I think this deserves its own post.

[-] maegul@lemmy.ml 20 points 1 year ago

Thanks for the complement ... and I'm glad my hot take resonates. If you like you can paste this into your own post (and just link back here or whatever if you want to cite me).

Your own experience realising that you've felt this but not been able to talk about it could be a very interesting addition or framing and is also probably deserving of its own post!

[-] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world 23 points 1 year ago

Aww, you guys are sweet!

Kidding aside, you're definitely onto something vis a vis insecure and quite likely incompetent middlemen!

[-] trolololol@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

As a middleman that's certainly not insecure and hopefully not incompetent I don't know what to say.

BUT I agree with most of it, as long as it doesn't apply to me.

[-] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago

As a middleman (...) I agree (...) as long as it doesn't apply to me

There, summed it up for you 😛

[-] RHSJack@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Or me! Let's jump in a convo and discuss this. Post this in our Kubernetes or have one of our interns do it. Let's say "this afternoon and I will cancel anyway"-ish?

[-] Valmond@lemmy.world 25 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

So true!

Since I started to answer more "who planned that?", "who decided we should do this/that? instead of like "we'll try to make it work next sprint" and taking obvious flak, things are way more calm nowadays.

In my last job, productivity was through the roof when the managers were on holidays.

[-] The_v@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

FYI Plannified is not a word in English.

I have seen it for years from native French speakers though.

[-] Valmond@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

Thanks! Planned it is I guess!

[-] saltesc@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

I wish it were that simple. There's also personality and behaviour differences in people. Some people simply suck at working alone or remotely and it fucking sucks to be their manager because guess who has to work onsite now?

Even if my current team was like my previous ones where everyone could 100% remote—hell, I saw one guy every six months or so and let another travel Europe remote working—theres's personalities that loooooooove seeing everyone at work and 0.6 of their FTE is socialising. Work is getting out of the house and away from the family. They complain that no one's at the office to get paid to talk to.

[-] maegul@lemm.ee 24 points 1 year ago

And what about the people that suck at working at the office? And those that don’t get any or are not interested in a work based social life?

Reality is that there’s diversity and lots of in betweens. Thus diversity and flexibility and the value of managers in bringing it all together (like maybe they were always supposed to?)

[-] shani66@ani.social 12 points 1 year ago

And those people need to find a damn hobby!

[-] seaQueue@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

They have one, it's called getting paid to socialize at work

[-] Rade0nfighter@lemmy.world 74 points 1 year ago

But what the employees do with their new found free time?

Develop independence, or even, compete with us? No no can’t have that.

[-] SaharaMaleikuhm@feddit.org 23 points 1 year ago

Exactly, wouldn't want the slaves to get ideas.

[-] oken735@lemmy.world 56 points 1 year ago

Microsoft currently technically does unlimited time off, so there really is nothing stopping managers and PMs from cancelling meetings from every Friday and making this a reality for a global trial, but they wouldn't do that because the meetings are a big part of how they show their worth ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[-] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 3 points 1 year ago

Or their "worth"

[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world 55 points 1 year ago

I wonder what excuse they used to shut it down

[-] Stern@lemmy.world 41 points 1 year ago

Considering it was in Japan they probably got off by just saying it was an experiment and the results would be evaluated (in the trash compactor). Japan is notably risk averse.

[-] Angry_Autist@lemmy.world 21 points 1 year ago

And also values the appearance of productivity over actual productivity.

See: Their silly fake running in the hallways.

[-] Username02@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

"Now jobs are supposed to be miserable, so joy is canceled"

[-] HowManyNimons@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

"It's woooooooooooke!"

[-] cheddar@programming.dev 6 points 1 year ago

To shut down what? By design, that was a short trial:

The company introduced a program this summer in Japan called the “Work Life Choice Challenge,” which shut down its offices every Friday in August and gave all employees an extra day off each week.

And like any short trial, it doesn't answer the question whether the increased productivity would stay over longer periods of time. Other trials suggest that it wouldn't.

[-] potustheplant@feddit.nl 8 points 1 year ago

Even if productivity turns out to be the same, the 4-day work week would be better.

[-] cheddar@programming.dev 1 points 1 year ago

I fully agree. But I don't like misleading posts like this one implying that a 4-day work week would lead to better productivity. That's called confirmation bias. We (workers) won't achieve anything by spreading lies like that.

[-] WalnutLum@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

They didn't really cancel it, it kept going through corona when the entire staff went remote so the conversation stopped cause everyone was kind of working on their own desired time anyway.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h-2ExgMVZcE

Microsoft continues to do full remote and "hybrid" (only coming into the office once or twice a week) work schedules depending on your position and responsibilities.

Edit: I also wanted to add some clarity about Japan's labor laws and how they interfere with a more "lax" labor schedule.

Japan requires employers submit the actual working schedules of employees and proof that they're working those schedules (usually either time cards) as a way to prevent overwork.

This obviously doesn't work in many cases because bosses will force their employees to work past their time clocks in or work during nomikais.

And on the other hand, this prevents teams in larger organizations from taking more hands-on approaches to their work schedules by forcing employees to work the schedules they're assigned.

What a lot of foreign companies and companies that do full remote do is exactly the same as "black companies": they fake their employees time cards so they can take a day off even when the official work schedule says they were working that day.

Japan needs some reform in their labor measuring practices before 4-day work weeks (a surprisingly popular reform, given Japan's penchant for conservatism in the workplace) can take hold properly.

[-] kandoh@reddthat.com 29 points 1 year ago

They'll never agree to a 4 day work week, because then they know they'll be looking at a 3 day work week one day.

[-] ByteJunk@lemmy.world 27 points 1 year ago

This is the war that's coming.

More and more processes are automatic, and AI is now breaking down the last holdout of "manual" jobs.

How will that future, where only a small percentage of mankind actually needs to work, look like? It could be heaven, but it's shaping up to be hell unless we win these fights.

[-] Asafum@feddit.nl 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The future where only some people need to work will literally never come. It relies on the premise that the ownership class will give up ownership. They will not.

The machines that increase the productivity and reduce the need for manual labor will just increase profit for the owner/shareholders. Increases in productivity mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for the common person. You already hear this argument now in the form of "I took the risk and put up capital to run the business so I deserve the lions share of profits." That argument will just become "I put forward the capital to buy the machines that produce the products, why do you deserve any of it!?"

The same could be said for AI. "I paid for the license to run this AGI, why should you get anything from my profit!?"

[-] 2pt_perversion@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

I mean for some AI at least it was directly trained on material from random internet people. I deserve money from any chatgpt work because I made a lot of Reddit comments.

[-] Asafum@feddit.nl 2 points 1 year ago

While I agree...

Asshole CEOs: YoU PuT iT iN a PuBlIc SpAcE sO iT's MiNe NoW!

[-] Pika@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago

Yeah and then they'll turn around and say the exact opposite of oh it's a private server so we own your information because it's private and you agreed to it by using our service

[-] grrgyle@slrpnk.net 3 points 1 year ago

That's why you've got to take it

[-] MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 year ago

Unlikely. While a 4 day week generates more profit with happier workers, a 3 day week doesn't.

[-] Krauerking@lemy.lol 5 points 1 year ago

I just don't see us moving down to a 5 day work week from six. God already gave us one day off for us to find happiness in his glory I don't see what a second day would add to it. And how will the factories make money when the children aren't there to run the machines?

[-] M0oP0o@mander.xyz 24 points 1 year ago

"Tried"

So they what saw the 40% jump and then said, Naw the old way was best?

[-] Croquette@sh.itjust.works 19 points 1 year ago

They invented a KPI that wasn't met and called it a day.

[-] M0oP0o@mander.xyz 4 points 1 year ago

Ah yes, and they likely told staff to do the paperwork for the new metric since it "takes zero time"

[-] MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml 22 points 1 year ago

I learned from anime that those poor souls are expected to work overtime assignments for free.

[-] MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)
this post was submitted on 12 Aug 2024
657 points (99.7% liked)

Work Reform

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