I'm a little ashamed of this one. I really wanted it, and I was a little desperate.
- HR Interview
- CTO interview
- 16-hour take home test
- 4-hour panel interview where the engineers grilled me on random things
- CEO Interview
Didn't get it.
I'm a little ashamed of this one. I really wanted it, and I was a little desperate.
Didn't get it.
Fuck. This. Shit.
Been in an interview where the CTO asked me a bunch of questions and seemed interested, only to ghost me in the end. No reply even to my follow-up. Thankfully I found a better job.
I had one that was similar to this guys, got to the CEO interview and until that moment I was still excited to be there. They flat-out asked me "Here at ___ we know we're making the world a better place - and because of that we're willing to make ___ our number one priority in our lives. This is a hard question, are you willing to do the same?"
I was taken aback for a second. I then answered in the only way I could. "I see what you are doing and fully appreciate it. If I'm hired here ___ will be one of the most important things in my life. Whenever I'm working I will be 100% dedicated to the work, I've never shy'ed away from it. I'll work nights and weekends when needed, sometimes those are needed. However you're asking if it will be the most important thing in my life? My answer is no. It will be one of the most important things in my life, but my family and spouse is the my most important thing in my life."
No shit, they ended the interview there, and I got a canned rejection email within 30 minutes. I've never been so angry at the audacity of an interview question like that. Who the fuck do you think you are demanding that you make yourself more important than my spouse?
Yes, it will be the most important thing in my life. I even brought my divorce papers here to prove it.
Jesus. Good on you for not having any of that bullshit.
Ridiculous take home tests are probably the number one reason I decline to continue interview processes. If you think that building a client, an API, wiring it up to some other third party API, then deploying is a reasonable scope for an unpaid interview challenge then you are very bad at scoping software projects and the most important thing I can do for you is tell you as much.
I told one start up if I built what they asked for in the interview, I would pursue funding from their investors and launch it as a competitor- it was that similar to what their actual app did.
I interviewed at Cisco once, with two managers. They started arguing with each other during said interview.
I didn’t get the job, and I didn’t want it, either.
to be fair, even if you got the job, ciscos high turnover rate, you'd probably be out the door in under 2 years anyways
My first ever software interview was with a small company that made a web app for traveling nurses. It was mainly a calendar with additional functionality to help nurses manage cases.
I was given a pre-interview programming task to complete. The task was relatively simple and would not take long to complete so I agreed.
When I logged in with the credentials they provided it looked like they had a very robust testing environment. There was a complete copy of the app running on the server with fake information in the database.
The code itself did not follow any style guides and was rarely documented. This caused me to spend much more time completing the task than I had estimated. Once I completed the task and verified functionality I notified the company. They checked my work and scheduled an in person interview with the lead developer, CTO, and CEO.
During the interview they attempted to access the test server with my code so we can discuss. My code could not be found on the test server and it was at this time we learned that the lead developer had given me complete access to the production servers including direct database access. The “fake” data that I used in my own testing on a production server was actual patient records. It was a huge HIPAA violation on their part and I withdrew my application for fear that this company will soon be in legal trouble.
I suspect they thought I was going to report them because they offered me $3000 for the “work completed.” It turns out their programming task was a feature that they wanted implemented into production anyways. I think if it were not for the lead developer’s mistake I would not have been paid anything. There was no offer of compensation for the completion of the task before the mistake was revealed.
Having read some of the comments from the interviewer perspective in this thread, I am glad they got you and not one of the yahoos other interviewers got.
I think the interview I least enjoyed was with an unnamed big tech company.
It was the first interview of the day and the guy came in with "so me and my buddy have been trying to solve this algorithm problem for years. I'd like you to try and solve it for me."
Like... Dude, that's not a reasonable interview question! You should not use algorithm questions that you don't know of any answer to in an interview. You're effectively asking someone to give you a solution to something way too complicated of a problem without even a few hours to think about the problem or sit down with it on their own.
That sounds suspiciously like doing actual work for them.
I had one interview where they literally got me to fix their Sendmail server while I was there.
Oh god I've had an open ended one like that only once, and you're right it's terrible. Those questions would be great things to tackle as a team of peers where you're all working together without the pressure, but dude you hold our careers in your hands. Pull it together
Aren't most questions like this are simply looking at what approach you try and not a solution? They've been at it for years so they can easily tell if you're trying something that makes sense or something trivial even if they don't have a solution or even if there isn't one.
Not the interview itself, but... I had a personality test before the interview and it felt so fucked up. There were always two completely different statements of, at least to me, questionable morals. Like "I enjoy people's envy of me having better things" and "In social situations, the conversation should only be about me". Stuff like that, but not only egoistic statements. Then you had a single scale under the two statements which went from "describes me" to "describes me very well", for both statements, no neutral option. Stated time was like 10 minutes, I took it like in an hour. An hour of having to think through if I should say that "not having sympathy for an abandoned dog describes me" because the other option was more horrible. Felt fucking traumatized after that.
It got me the interview, but not the job.
You’re in a desert walking along in the sand when all of the sudden you look down, and you see a tortoise, it’s crawling toward you. You reach down, you flip the tortoise over on its back. The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over, but it can’t, not without your help. But you’re not helping. Why is that?
Interlinked
Guess they were looking for sociopaths for that position.
Please share the company name.
As the interviewee?
I show up at their office for a round of interviews. IIRC it was 4 interviews of about an hour each. Every single interviewer comes in 5-10 minutes late. They all look completely exhausted. Unprompted, they all commented that "yeah, this is a start-up so we're expected to work 80 hour weeks. That's just how it is." I did not take that job.
Another place wanted to do a coding "pre-screening" thing. You know, where you go to a website and there's a coding question and you code it and submit your answer. THIS place wanted you to install an extension that took full control of your browser, your webcam, your mic, etc. So it could record you doing the coding challenge. No, thank you.
As the interviewer? omg, the stories I can tell.
We had a guy come in for an hour interview. We start asking him the normal interview questions. Literally everything he says is straight up wrong or he says, "I don't know" and then just gives up and doesn't try to work out a solution or anything. But we have a whole hour with this guy and as interviewers we've been instructed to use the full hour otherwise candidates complain that they weren't given a fair chance even when it's TOTALLY obvious it's going to be a "no-hire." So we start asking this guy easier and easier questions... just giving him basic softball questions... and HE STILL GETS THEM ALL WRONG. We ask him what type of variable would you use to store a number? He says, "String." WHAT?! I'm totally flabbergasted at this point. So finally I get a brilliant idea: I'll ask him an OPINION question! There's no way he can get that wrong, right? Looking at his resume, it has something like "Java Expert" on there. So I say to him, "It says on your resume you're a Java Expert. What's your favorite thing about Java?" His response? "Oh, I actually don't know anything about Java. I just put that on my resume because I know they used that at a previous company." So now on top of this guy getting every question wrong, we've established he has also lied on his resume, so basically just red flags EVERYWHERE. Finally, after a grueling 45 minutes we decide to give up asking questions and just end with the whole, "So we like to reserve the last bit of time so you can ask us questions. Do you have anything you'd like to ask?" Without missing a beat, this guy goes, "When do I start? I feel like I NAILED that interview!"
At another company I worked at, we would do online interviews that took only an hour. The coding portion of the interview had a single question: "Given a list of strings, print the contents of the list to the screen." That was it. Sure, we could make the coding question harder if they totally aced it, but the basic question was nothing more complicated than that. The candidate could even choose which programming language they wanted to use for the task. That single question eliminated half the candidates who applied for the job. Some straight up said they couldn't do it. One person hung up on me and then when I tried to call back they said the fire alarm went off at their place and they would reschedule. They never did. Many people forgot that I could see their screens reflected in their glasses and I could see them frantically Googling. There was one candidate that did so insanely poorly during the interview that we believe it must have been a completely different person that had gone through the initial phone screen, so basically they were trying to bait-and-switch.
I have a bunch of other stories but this post is already getting quite long.
Unprompted, they all commented that "yeah, this is a start-up so we're expected to work 80 hour weeks. That's just how it is."
lol I'm walking out the minute they say that.
I resonate with so many of these. I hate the tech prescreen, but morons, cheaters, and liars make it necessary. The prescreen is purely there to weed out a good, like you said well over 50% of candidates right there.
And I'll throw a thorn at you, I do store numbers as strings.... When I'm dealing with currency lol. I'm 100% sure that's what he meant of course, because he was thinking about float precision and how you wouldn't want to risk currency imprecision during serialization or anything! Should have given them the job! /s
I had an interview where they asked me to set up 3 micro services (with full functionality), a Kafka broker, a frontend and to configure everything to run on Kubernetes.
According to them this would take "more or less 4 hours" and those hours would obviously not be paid.
I'm still not sure whether they were just trying to get free work out of people or if their expectations for what a software engineer is supposed to do in half a day are completely absurd.
Edit: this is from the perspective of a technical interviewer.
I've done around 200 or so technical interviews for mostly senior data engineering roles. I've seen every version of made up code, terrible implementation suggestion and dozens of folks with 5+ years of experience and couldn't wrote a JOIN to save their lives.
The there were a couple where the resume was obviously made up because they couldn't back up a single point and they just did not know a thing about data. They would usually talk in circles about buzzwords and Excel jaron. "They big data'd the data lake warehouse pivot hadoop in Azure Redshift." Sure, ya did, buddy.
Yes, they were "pre-screened". This was one of the BIG tech companies.
It's funny, the idea to make a thread here was because I was on another thread talking about using ChatGPT for cheating, and I had a student say "Why would I go through the hassle of writing the assignment when ChatGPT could just write it out for me", and I just literally laughed out loud, because they have no idea how fucked they'll be in a real interview environment
As an interviewee it's nothing much, but when they asked me to sort a list, I find that question to be completely pointless, I will never implement a sort IRL, and most people who get it right are because they have it memorized.
As an interviewer, a person who sent their take home as a .doc file inside a zipped folder. I didn't understood why they sent it that way, but got the code to compile, and found very serious issues. When confronting the person they claim there were no issues, which happens so I pointed out at a specific line, and still nothing, I asked them if they knew what an SQL injection was and his answer was "yes, and you're wrong, there's no SQL injection happening there", so I sent him a link for him to click that would call that endpoint on his local instance, and dropped the entire database for the take-home assignment. No need to tell you he wasn't hired.
TBH a take home assignment as a .doc
file would have been enough for me to pass. Even when going through resumes (for technical roles), i usually skip anything that's not a PDF.
I will never implement a sort IRL
My answer to "what's the best sorting algorithm" is "the SORT BY clause in SQL".
I had an on site interview with the owner of a small IT company. He was 30 minutes late (and I'd arrived 10 minutes early to be... ya know, punctual).
He offered no apologies and had this whole arrogance surrounding him. Complained that he had to drive to the office for this. Then after 5 minutes, it was obvious he didn't even bother to look over my CV and was completely unprepared for the interview. ... and somehow this was my fault.
Of course, the interview didn't go well (for either of us). He offered a lowball 30% less than the average salary, I was looking for 30% above. I rolled my eyes, shook hands and left.
Later, I got a call back from the recruiter "I had no idea you were asking that much. From what X (the owner) said, this was a complete disaster." I said, "I agree" and politely hung up.
In hindsight, I should have probably insisted on rescheduling (or just left) after 20 minutes. But, I was young and didn't have many interviews under my belt. So, I took it as a learning experience.
I interviewed for a part-time web developer role during the summer of my second year at university. The "employer" wanted the interview at their house. No problem, I guess it's a small operation and I'd work remotely?
The interview was fine. It was a guy that worked with his wife, and they needed someone to pick up some work over a few weeks. Midway through the interview, the guy's wife came downstairs - in what I can only describe as the kind of dressing gown you'd see in porn.
She walked over, asked if I was "the guy". The man said, "oh yeah, he looks good don't you think?", to which she responded "yeah, he looks like he'll do the job nicely". She then came over and put her hand by the back of my neck, and asked if I wanted to help out with a problem they'd been having.
Being a socially awkward 20 year old CS student, I said something along the lines of "uhh no that's okay thanks, I'd better get going soon", and the man escorted me out. I had received an email minutes after to say the job was mine if I wanted it.
I turned the job down, saying that something else had come up. I'm 70% sure that the job was a threesome or some weird cuck thing, and if I didn't have a girlfriend and wasn't awkward as fuck I'd probably have gone back and plowed his wife/written some PHP. Either way, that's my worst interview experience - and probably will be for the rest of my days.
On the other side, one guy I interviewed for a startup was really qualified and we wanted to offer him the role. I thankfully Googled him, and found a Twitter account against his name where he had pics of him balls deep in a blow up doll. We didn't hire him.
It's certainly a bad sign if you leave the interview and you're not sure if the job is for writing PHP or pleasuring his wife.
Interviewed at two big, well-known tech companies. Had done a lot of mobile dev work at the time, but really wanted to switch to connected hardware and told the recruiters.
Showed up for the first on-site interview. Guy walks in. Explains the actual first interviewer couldn't make it so he was a last-minute stand-in. Goes: "So, it says here you are intererested in mobile. That's good. My team is looking for someone like that."
I explained it was actually the other way round. What proceeded was an awkward hour of bullshit questions about train schedulers and sorting algorithms. Repeat five times that day. Every. Single. One.
Second company a few weeks later. Same thing. Except this time, 2/3 of the way through, a manager in HW group walks in. Grouses why he was asked to talk to someone, checks notes, about mobile. We had the greatest conversation after I set him straight. He wanted me to come back and do another loop just with his group. Except a week later, they announced a hiring freeze and I never heard back.
In retrospect, it was a good thing. I would not have been a good fit.
I did one where I went through a few rounds of interviews, technical and otherwise. In talking with the developers, they mentioned that they were trying to integrate a certain client side framework into their backend frameworks build process, without success. Get to the final stages, and the director of engineering asks me to work on this take home project to, you guessed in, integrate the js framework into the build process of the backend framework.
I sent them a strongly worded rejection email. It was a realreal eye opening experience.
If it's not a hassle, could you explain the implications of this request to someone who only understands basic coding?
Imagine you're interviewing for an Architect position at a company that's designing a hotel, and your take home assignment is to design a hotel.
They were trying to get them to solve a real world problem for free under the guise of an interview (made up) problem.
Seems like an American thing to completely overdo the process. We have interviews i Europe too, but they are not insane and you don't have to have algorithm knowledge to be a programmer in most companies.
If you are talking about big tech, sure, they are inventing ways to find the absolute top candidates since they have millions of applications.
How about the other way around, I had this guy come in, he had been out of the business for a while and decided to go and be a mechanic for a few years. One winter in particular he decided that he was kind of tired of doing the mechanic stuff and wanted to come back.
I interviewed him on a phone screen. His knowledge was appropriately dated but he was not bad. I figure he'd be able to come in and get up to speed pretty quickly.
My company does kind of a nightmare scenario where they interview you all day long and you literally meet with everyone in groups.
First thing in the morning first group came through said he was great.
Second group came through asked him some questions and he was a little bit more cagey but still not bad.
The third group was the lunch group, They took him out to lunch and he threw out a bunch of racist stories and while people watching, made fun of people as they came into the restaurant for their ethnicity or their weight, or what car they drive or whatever else they could find.
The lunch crew came back and did a hand off but no one raised the flags right away so we went into the first after lunch crew. A couple of people from the lunch crew pulled me aside while he was in his next set of meetings and said they were extremely uncomfortable being around him and recounted the stories.
I had to bust up the interview and send him on his way. The person that was uncomfortable with what he said is one of the most IDGAF people I've ever met.
Years earlier we had a developer come in with a fantastic resume. They brought him in first thing he was rude, and we're not talking autistic doesn't know what he's doing rude he was clearly making a lot of generalizations about people and being nasty about the questions. Skill wise he was absolutely fantastic and he would have been fabulous to be a lead in front of a complicated project, But he was impossible to be around. Toward the end of the Early interview they told him that they had all they needed. He asked him if it was because of his attitude and they said that it was a team job and they needed somebody that was capable of working with a team. He said they could just put him in a one-man team and have him architect things or do other work by himself. There was simply no chance they were going to hire him. You don't willingly bring that much toxicity in the workplace if you can help it.
I retired as a programmer five years ago and now I drive a school bus. The difference in acceptable workplace behavior is pretty stark. In my software companies, nobody ever came anywhere close to saying anything even vaguely racist; meanwhile in the bus garage people routinely use the n-word and the g-word. And it's not like this is Mississippi or anything - this is a suburb of Philadelphia where the entire transportation department would probably be sacked if parents were ever to become aware of how their bus drivers talk.
I interviewed for a shop in Ottawa.
I was working at the time, but it was declining situation so I was Motivated.
So I show up a the appointed time, and I meet a guy who can best be described as 'a little grizzled' and 'a little stressed'. We go over my resume, first off the bat.
"These are the things we need from you," he said, tapping items on a list. "And these are places you suck," he said, tapping the same list.
I basically checked out at that point; there was no way I was suitable for this post. I could learn it, but it was a lot. And while I had a lot of other skills that showed up on the job desc and my CV, missing so many important pieces was insurmountable. It wasn't a super-fun experience no matter how interesting he was - he was a great lead hand - and I left without much fanfare. Great rambling talk about all kinds of things, but it's the worst I've ever flamed out in an interview; and the fastest.
Imagine my surprise when he 'strong-hire'd me. I actually said to the recruiter, "Yeah, you've got it wrong. No no, and it's totally okay, but you're off by one or something. You mean to call the name above mine or the name below mine, and that guy is probably gonna love this job. But you don't mean to call me. No stress, all good, but yeah, I'm not the guy you wanted to call."
It was a great job and that guy was my lead. Brutal honestly is fabulous if you can take it.
Got a couple.
The first bad interview I turned up and had to wait for the owner who rocked up 15 minutes late. We had a discussion and he was happy with my IT skills, we then got into a discussion of how to run the business.
He asked me what would I do if a salesman kept selling Linux support to businesses but the company had no one that had experience of it, I said it didn't feel morally right to sell something that you can't actually fulfill currently, put a cork in the salesman regarding Linux support, train/hire staff and when ready then continue to offer it. He said that's not how his business works and to drive the business the salesman was doing the right thing.
During that interview I saw someone walk into the office that I had worked with in the past, they were incredibly unreliable, bad at the job and were fired, this one guy appearing gave me the final sign this was not the workplace for me. After the interview they gave me an offer that I declined.
The second interview probably a out 2 months later I turned up to was a small company of maybe 3 people. I turned up and it was a shared office space they used, he walked up to the receptionist and asked if there was a meeting room available, she said no. So he led me to the kitchenette area where he offered for me to sit on a sofa not to dissimilar to this...
Having the hum of a vending machine in the background added to the ambience. We got to chatting and it sounded like the guy didn't really know what he wanted to do with the business or how to run it, generally seemed disorganised.
Towards the end of the interview wouldn't you know it, the same guy I used to work with walked into the kitchenette wearing the t-shirt of a company in the building, gave me "the nod" and proceeded to use the vending machine, which failed to dispense his choice and he stood there shaking the machine.
This guy must have been some kind of angel in place to stop me from taking bad jobs. I declined the offer they gave me. A year or so later I was telling a friend about this and we checked on the company, it went out of business.
They were bad interviews, but I still got something out of them.
I’m not a swe but I work in technology doing solutions, so semi technical I guess. I recently did 6 rounds with a company with positive feedback after each round. They told me they needed to get through a few more candidates and would have an answer on if an offer was being made the following week.
1 week turned into 2 into 3. At the end of the third week I lied and said I had an offer and told them that I needed an offer from them or to remove me from candidacy. The opted to remove me.
I was working at a job, so I wasn’t stressing it but the process was just gross
I had an interviewer hand me an IQ test before they were even willing to speak with me about the position. Awful experience.
According to the team I nailed it + above expectations. I was asked for my salary: Said at least between X and Y.
I received an offer with X.
They raised it to the middle
I declined. New offer arose: Y.
I declined again since they were cheap and not transparent like me.
Received a flame e-Mail afterwarsa about how I would dare to decline since it is the matching salary. I have wasted their time and effort. THE CEO WROTE THE LAST SENTENCE IN UPPERCASE.
Oh, and I should have been responsible for one year to maintain enums about tax numbers, since everybody started there like this.
Uff.
i got an interview as an embedded software engineer for a company that makes wireless camera flashes. high-precision real-time programming. i wanted to dive further into that area.
the first task was... reading comprehension, basic arithmetic, and pattern matching. i was flabbergasted. i wrote a really negative passage in their feedback form about how they apparently don't trust their engineering candidates to be able to read, and how those pattern matching iq tests are bullshit since you can up your score by like 20% if you practice.
they called me back and explained that the reason they have everyone from cleaning staff to C-level take the standardized test is to create a workplace of "objective equality". also they were really confused about my stance on the test because apparently i had scored in the top 5%. that's the fastest i've ever noped out of an interview process.
https://agnos.is/posts/tech-recruitment-is-out-of-control.html
This was my experience at the beginning of 2024. It was bad enough that I had to write a blog post about it.
I know people don't like the technical interview, but for me, it's not about knowledge but process. I don't care that you don't have something memorized or don't know the syntax without your linter. I want to see how you figure it out. I was interviewing for a junior web developer, and I gave them the task of fizzbuzz. I told them it was OK to use Google or any other tool. The interview ended with the prospect in tears. I felt very bad and told them they could finish it outside the interview and send it to us (they didn't). Somehow, they were still on our shortlist.
I once did a coding interview. They had me write a MVC. It was on bitbucket so private repo. They merged my code then didn't get back to me. They forgot that I had access so I got to see the company using interviews code for a real project. They didn't last long so bullet dodged. But it was very silly. I eventually let them know I had access and within the hour they took me off the project despite never giving me an email in response.
A decade ago, I interviewed at a FAANG company. It was basically an all-day affair and a bit grueling, but they did at least try to make it as pleasant as possible. I did have to do binary search on a whiteboard. Also write code to do something on a whiteboard (I had initially been told not to bring a personal laptop and the third or fourth interviewer said that I should use my personal laptop since it would be easier than white-boarding. Uhhhhh...)
A couple companies ago, I ended up at like 5 or 6 total interviews, including the initial HR/fit screen. There were some extra steps including background screenings and the like (healthcare IT). I started the job and almost nothing was what they said it was (though apparently that was because of a change in course between when I started and ended the process). It was actually a decent enough gig and taught me a fair bit, but the interview process was rough in terms of sheer number of calls/meetings and timing. I could swear at one point a guy was typing code I was telling him on the phone to verify that it worked (then again, nearly anything is valid Perl which is the language I started in there).
Another previous company was a clusterfuck of time zones, weird interview times from people in multiple countries, poor communication, etc. Still, I was desperate and went with it. Ended up being the longest job I worked, but boy were there shitstorms that came out of the chaos. It was a start-up spun off an existing entity and just weird in a lot of ways.
My current job was an HR fit check and some basic screening questions about tech stuff, interview with peer, interview with a manager, and interview with head of IT. No projects nor coding tests. I've happily been working for them for quite a while now. Pays well enough by Japanese IT standards and, perhaps more importantly to me, is fully remote (though I'm heavily encouraged to bop down to Tokyo for a couple company events per year).
As the interviewer, especially before I was in development and was leading a helpdesk (developing stuff for that job actually got noticed and got me my first developer role), I was heavily into the weird questions (from a book called something like 'how to move mt fuji' IIRC), but at least part of my job was assessing people's approach to situations and questions, how they explain things, how they react under pressure, and so on. Still kinda cringy thinking back to it, but I was in my early 20s at the time in the early 2000s.
As an interviewer for developers, I never gave any assignment I expected to take more than 2 hours in the worst case and only gave those if the person didn't have something already online to submit (i.e. a github repo or whatnot). I would ask them about choices they made, flow, and anything that stuck out to me. I did ask plenty of questions to make sure the applicants weren't full of shit and to assess experience; so many people who have SQL on their resume apparently have no idea WTF the EXPLAIN functionality is and have no idea about indexes which is frightening. I always tried to strike a balance between finding out what I needed to know and respecting the time of my interviewees.
Even before AI, I definitely encountered people writing things on their CV with no actual idea about them. During phone interviews, I could definitely hear people furiously typing away (presumably into some search engine) whilst stalling with non-answers. I was not expecting anyone to know everything about everything, but I'd rather they tell me they aren't sure and give it their best shot than search and give me the same thing one of the first few hits in google or Wikipedia would give (this happened way too often at a previous company that never really screened anybody before taking up engineers' and managers' time for interviews).
I've also had a couple people be confidently incorrect and either refuse to get the hint or acknowledge this when I gently tried to ask questions that should cause them to realize that what they said was wrong or contradictory. People make mistakes, especially under pressure, but I definitely had some answers that left me in disbelief.
To kick us off, mine from this week that I wrote down in another thread. In 60 minutes take an adjacency matrix as an input, good old int[][]
, and return all of the disjointed groups, and their group sizes in descending order.
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