that's it that's the post

Just finished reading Abbate’s 2020 essay, “Animal Rights and the Duty to Harm: When to be a Harm Causing Deontologist, and since I’ve also been thinking a lot about the de-sexing of animals (dogs and cats in specific; humans and all other animals in general), I read Abbate’s essay with that subject on my mind.

Anyways, I’m really not certain where I land on this subject, despite having read a number of arguments from all sides. I’m interested in hearing where members of this community stand (I’m aware that many, if not most, vegans are advocates for the sterilization of NHA), especially those members who have relationships with companion animals for which de-sexing is a common, socially acceptable and/or recommended practice.

Also, I know this can be a contentious subject, so I feel I should say I am approaching this in good faith, and I ask that anyone who contributes to this conversation does the same. I have no agenda other than genuinely trying to learn. If there is a better community for this question, I will gladly ask there. Thanks!

Recently saw an ad for a place that advertised themselves as both "plant based friendly" and "meat lover friendly".

I immediately reacted by saying "What kind of loser chud makes eating corpse a personality trait? Some sort of divorced dad quirk chungus that won't shut up about bacon 20 years after that stopped being even remotely funny on reddit??"

And then I realized I do the same shit with beans, even with my carnist coworkers. Hell, I even do it on here. A-Am I fucking cringe for being too into beans, or am I still based because beans are worth the attention? My vegan partner thinks there's no escape from being a cringey millennial either way.

I made this comment on vegan@slrpnk.net and it feels like something I want to revisit at some point, or post at others who go on about "easing into veganism" But a random comment might get lost and also I'd like some feedback on it.

The problem with “Eventually affordable cruelty-free meat” is that it gives the fence sitters a cushion to delay making a commitment. And we need people to make a hard commitment, either against veganism (i. e. nothing changes) or for veganism (i. e. suffering reduces). There are a certain type of people that wear cruelty like a badge of honor. There was no convincing them anyway. But for most people I would think the cognitive dissonance “I don’t like being cruel vs. I am being cruel” simply has to outweigh the perceived amount of labor that goes into changing ones habits.

And I understand that meat-alternatives tip the scales by lessening the amount of labor required to change ones dietary habits, which is great. I am hugely in favor of that. But there are a couple things that I feel one needs to be mindful of.

a. The focus gets shifted away from the animals and to the “sacrifices” the (former?) oppressor has to make. E.g. This salami is good, but not as good as the "real" one
b. There is a constant reminder of the "sacrifices" the vegan makes. In contrast to the cruelty that is usually completely invisible to the consumer. E.g. every time I eat some vegan salami
c. Substituting meat with vegan alternatives means that if someone decides they are “done sacrificing” comfort, they can simply substitute back. E.g. It's been such a stressful week, sick of all the vegan salami, just this once...
d. It makes it harder for children of vegan parents to recognise vegan food vs non-vegan food. E. g. Yeah we eat salami at home, so why shouldn’t I eat the salami in the kindergarden? I wish we had more of an alienation from non-vegan food from the beginning with our kids.

It’s the nicotine patches argument all over again. I’m not against meat-alternatives per se, but (here in Germany) there’s such a huge huge trend to offer all kinds of alternatives with little thought given to how we should be approaching this problem. Free nicotine patches to all addicts sounds great but there needs to be a movement for moving past “nicotine addiction” in general which I’m not seeing anywhere.

With the lab-grown flesh stuff I fear all the points above amplified 100fold. It’s functionally flesh, that's the whole point. Plus since it’s not a practicable alternative it has, for the past 13 years, actually tipped the scales in favor of the “cruelty” cognitive dissonance, by giving it an “eventually”. The amount of (perceived) labor seems greater now than it will be once an "affordable(!) flesh-substitute" arrives, which is somehow always right around the corner. The “I'm too stressed to give up smoking right now” argument. Like yeah don’t quit smoking a week before a big exam, but don’t wait until you can afford a beach vacation either.

I hope that makes sense, in a vegan context it’s of course a bit different because the stakes are quite a bit higher. Do give up murdering as soon as possible. An exam is not more important than someones life. But if you're so dependant on your current dietary habits that you couldn't function without it due to some health concerns then lab-grown flesh or other alternatives might be an idea? It is kind of hard because here the oppressors have to police themselves. This is a situation where the oppressed cannot make their voices heard and so we must double and triple-check ourselves and when in doubt go with the more laborious option.

There's also the point about the food traditions we pass on. (Which is the thread that sparked this argument)

Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past. The tradition of all dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living.

Like yeah we are dealt this hand by the generations before us and we have to make the best of it, but lets also be mindful of how we are passing things on. Do we really want the next generation to have lab-grown flesh as a staple in their diet?

So I recently started and have been struggling to figure out the right amount of veggies to get without them going bad before I get to eating them. Are there any preservation tips or buying strategies you guys have used to prevent this? Also any other tips other than just plain preservation are welcome too since I am pretty new to this way of eating.

I am a Marxist and a materialist. Ideas and beliefs don't arise ex nihilo. They emerge to fit the material reality in which they exist. What are the material realities that lead to carnism? I would argue that there are only two that matter:

1. "I benefit from objectifying these animals."
2. "These animals are too weak to stop me from objectifying them."

Boil away the justifications, strip away the decorum, and this is what you get. But what if that person enters a situation where they benefit from objectifying me? What if I'm too weak to stop them? What barrier prevents them from doing so? My intelligence? My capacity for suffering? Their empathy and goodwill? None of that saves cattle, or pigs, or chickens. Why would it save me? I'm not foolish enough to think I'm special.

And look, survival situations are one thing. If you kill and eat an animal because the alternative is starvation, you have decided that the animal's life is worth less than your life. If someone decided that my life was worth less than their life, and a situation came up where they had to act on that decision, I wouldn't begrudge it. I wouldn't like it, I'd fight it, but I wouldn't begrudge it. The thought of someone deciding my life is worth less than their pleasure, though? Turns my blood to fucking ice.

Would love some vegan breakfast options that feel breakfasty (USian). Avacado toast is great but avacados can be pretty pricey and I can't eat that every day. Currently I just have a bunch of cashews in the morning and while I do love cashews I want something that has the right vibes and cashews just don't.

Folks...it's good! I didn't think I was going to like it since peas rank lower on my fav veggie list, but the Sicilian style split pea was banging. Very hearty and tasty with potatoes and pasta in it, along with carrot chunks. Will def. get again for the perfect lunch.

My therapist informed me I cant do anything vegan diet because its a "restrictive" diet and im diagnosed with anorexia. Currently in the psychward, told I can do it in residential but for two weeks I cant. Any advice on coping with this? ive been homeless and not eating and in an hour there will be meat staring at me.

lorem ipsem dolor (I posted in the wrong comm)

They banned all vegan posting lmao

Relatives love wasting food, and I usually wait until the last second to take it and eat it, I really hate it, and nagging them hasn't changed anything.

So what's your opinion on this? Or what do you do?

This post has been getting a lot of attention from both vegans and non-vegans, but it's quite obviously bullshit. This video covers it pretty well.

This was on a post asking "Is veganism apolitical?" or something like that, I believe. This is an older picture someone else sent me.

Here is a follow-up comment she made after someone asked her if she is vegan: