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[-] alvvayson@lemmy.dbzer0.com 84 points 1 week ago

Here in the Netherlands, the government agency for housing has the figures on how many second homes people own, but refuses to publish it.

Journalists have estimated that the number is about equal to the number of people looking for a house. About 400K on a population of 18M.

The scarcity is artificial.

[-] jol@discuss.tchncs.de 22 points 1 week ago

I don't think owning a second home per se is wrong or evil. Many people can't afford buying a house due to the upfront costs. But owning a second home and leaving it empty for years? Owning multiple homes to use as Airbnbs in residential areas? I really wish this was regulated. But it will never be because there's big bucks being made there.

[-] theneverfox@pawb.social 20 points 1 week ago

I'm even ok with them owning a second house - but I think simple, easily understood answers are what's called for in this day and age (nuance is so easily corrupted) so here's my pitch

You have a second house? If it's empty for 6 months, your taxes start going up. By a year it should be more then the house value rises, and it should just keep going up

Same with apartments and any property opening companies. Honestly, I'd be fine saying it all starts when your household owns at least three homes

You can surrender the house to the government to be rented at cost, maybe for a tax write-off for the first 10 years or something, otherwise it should just keep rising to insane levels.

I want people begging for renters. Developers should slash their prices to move units quickly - it'll incentivize more affordable housing. Hell, I want landlords so desperate they pay people to inhabit them for a fixed time period.

And that's why I like 3 - you had to move and your house isn't selling? I don't want to screw over individuals, there's easier people to. You have a vacation house? Fine, but if you move you better get your empty house sold.

It'll cause all kinds of problems, but we have empty homes and homeless people - that's just uncivilized

[-] ebolapie@lemmy.world 4 points 1 week ago

This is somewhat tangential, but what are your thoughts on Georgism -- a land value tax?

[-] theneverfox@pawb.social 6 points 1 week ago

I like it in theory, but I have a couple issuesn.

I feel like it's too complicated to make average people understand how it works, the idea is simple on the surface, but I think you'd have an endless parade of people asking "so if I have resources on my land, then what happens exactly?"

And in practice I feel like it would be a difficult transition from where we are. There's a lot of opportunity to sabotage it if they can muddy the waters, and I feel like lobbyists would end up carving it up in a way that puts corporate profits first... It depends on assessing value of many things, and if you compromise that portion of the process it all falls apart. They might even sneak in easier eminent domain or something

Systems like this can't be put in place through compromise, they have to be pure or it all falls apart. Maybe someday, I just don't know how to get from here to there without a lot of middle stages

[-] ebolapie@lemmy.world 5 points 1 week ago

Those are good points. Thank you for taking the time to respond.

[-] Krik@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 1 week ago

Unfortunately this won't solve the housing problem. It'll just cause the demolition of perfectly fine houses to avoid increasing costs and new homes would only be built if there are people that signed a tenancy agreement beforehand.

The market would shift from readily available but empty homes to yet to build homes.

[-] Barbarian@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 week ago

Why would they demolish houses rather than selling them? Makes no economic sense.

[-] Krik@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 1 week ago

Who would buy a house that would only cost you?

The homeless wouldn't magically have money for rent. So the homes stay empty. Nobody would buy them either because then they'll have to burden the ever increasing costs.

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[-] alvvayson@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 1 week ago

I like your thinking. Personally, I prefer easier schemes that are difficult to avoid.

Schemes like yours, while good on paper, are often circumvented through shell companies and foreign residency.

I prefer a scheme where we just tax all real estate at a quite high rate, somewhere in the 1-5% range. Let's say that a simple apartment would then result in €5K tax. A family home €10K.

Every citizen gets to subtract up to €5K of property tax from their income tax. So a family might pay €20K income tax, but can subtract €10K.

End result is a progressive property tax, which actually decreases tax on normal people.

People with expensive homes, foreign owners of homes and people who own multiple homes would be paying significantly more tax without the possibility to subtract it

[-] theneverfox@pawb.social 2 points 1 week ago

I have two problems with that - first, it doesn't directly address empty homes. Housing could still be commoditized, they just pay a larger tax - if they can make property prices go up even faster it would eat the difference

Second, messaging - people will hear that and ask "what does that mean for my property tax?" endlessly. It doesn't matter even if every individual would pay less, it's too mathematical and people won't do the math - they'll listen to their favorite voices tell them what it means

The nice thing about my idea is that it would crash the housing market, but it would do it by playing on a sense of justice. How is someone going to stand up and say "why can't I have a bunch of empty houses while we have homeless camps?". Many people would resist, but they have to do it while sounding like entitled assholes

Also, I think it would work for foreign investors and shell companies perfectly - see, it doesn't matter who owns the home, it matters who claims to live in it

A company doesn't live in a house. A foreigner can't say they're living their 6 months of the year when they're not in the country that long. A resident can claim a house and a secondary home (however that works out), but companies can't claim any - they need actual people to live in the home or it's vacant.

You put the fact the house is occupied first, then figure out who to tax and how much after - it doesn't matter what shell games you play, the only way around that is straight up fraud

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[-] SkunkWorkz@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Many second house owners use their second home as a pied-à-terre, a house they use to sleep in when they work in the city or a place to fuck their mistress when the wife sits at home in their mansion in the burbs/country side. So it rarely sits empty.

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[-] MintyFresh@lemmy.world 3 points 1 week ago

I do. There's a full blown climate crisis. How much of an extra footprint is a second home? How much wilderness is destroyed by peoples desire to have a nice view while they sip their coffee? We all need to look inward and ask what we're actually entitled to.

Al Gore said it best; it's an inconvenient truth.

[-] jol@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago

Hm, when I say owning a second home I don't mean building a second home. I strictly mean owning a second estate. I don't see how buying an existing estate to rent it out has anything to do with climate. It's just an investment to buy it and rent it out, even without planning on it increasing in value.

[-] MintyFresh@lemmy.world 5 points 1 week ago

Don't farm people. It's a home not a financial instrument. If you want riches produce something of value. In that scenario you're just jamming yourself between someone and their basic need for shelter with your hand out. A different problem than climate change to be sure, but problematic all the same.

[-] jol@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago

Hm I don't know man. I'm not a landlord, I don't even own a home. But I see renting as a useful service. Do landlords and estate companies abuse people? Absolutely. But I don't see renting as evil per se. Buying a house/flat is a huge personal investment and risk, and I'm happy to rent for the time being until I'm ready to buy.

[-] MintyFresh@lemmy.world 3 points 1 week ago

We could have co-op's, instead we have profits. I wish you all the luck in buying your own home. But for me, where I'm at, I will forever pay rent to never own anything. Forever a second class citizen. All these apartments I've lived in with rents calculated not by necessity, but by what the market will bear. I'm pissed, and I think you should be too.

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[-] Trimatrix@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago

Counterpoint, I don’t mind people owning a second home on the basis of climate change. There are so many other bigger fish to fry in that realm rather than wasting resources limiting a small group of people with the means of affording a second home. I would much rather people with the means of owning a second home having to pledge to improve the carbon footprint of the second home through things like adding solar panels, smart landscaping, etc. That way when the house is eventually let go its more sustainable and environmentally friendly then when it started.

[-] joshchandra@midwest.social 2 points 1 week ago

Poverty almost certainly costs more than all this ecologically, socially, and financially. The suffering and stress of the unhoused spills over into the lives of others who interact with or observe them, increasing our collective societal stress levels, increasing hospital visits, pushing people to earlier deaths (especially, of course, among the ultra-poor), and leading to expenses involving their unplanned funerals and messier aftermaths as opposed to cleanly laid-out wills, lost/absent documentation, etc.

Poverty drives people to violence and crime when they feel unheard and ignored. What if that house could help people find some peace in their lives? Instead maybe they become the very ones who rob and wreck it out of desperation. Societies need to help all people to keep the peace.

A lot of these issues can be or begin to be solved by giving them small apartments like in Finland. Homelessness ultimately costs society more than the actual cost to home them, ironically. We'll see, I suppose: https://www.nprillinois.org/illinois/2025-03-19/housing-experts-worry-about-federal-plans-to-cut-homelessness-programs

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[-] Rolive@discuss.tchncs.de 9 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

There's also so much bureaucratic pushback to building new houses for all sorts of bullshit reasons. The scarcity is indeed artificial and this is the kind of corruption that we accuse 3d world countries of. Except here it's called "lobbying".

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[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 53 points 1 week ago

It doesn't blow my mind, it infuriates me

[-] crmsnbleyd@sopuli.xyz 12 points 1 week ago

And people think it's the fault of the poor that they don't have enough :)

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[-] ebolapie@lemmy.world 9 points 1 week ago

Brings to mind the barbecue speech

How many men ever went to a barbecue and would let one man take off the table what's intended for 9/10ths of the people to eat. The only way you'll ever be able to feed the balance of the people is to make that man come back and bring back some of that grub he ain't got no business with.

[-] not_IO@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 1 week ago

american rhetoric: okay, imagine you have 10 steaks right?

[-] grrgyle@slrpnk.net 1 points 1 week ago

I can't believe this is my first time reading this. Thanks for sharing

[-] ArchmageAzor@lemmy.world 8 points 1 week ago

That's capitalism baybe. The expectation of infinite growth in a finite system based around the infinite sales of infinite products that have a price because they say they are finite.

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[-] HelixDab2@lemm.ee 7 points 1 week ago

There's a house on my way to work that's vacant. I saw an ambulance there about two years ago; I'm betting that the owner died, because it's now entirely overgrown, with weeds and grass completely overtaking the yard and driveway.

How many of the 'empty houses' are places that were abandoned and are in such disrepair that they're not safe for habitation, and how many of them are places that are second houses and/or bank-owned rentals?

For reference, the house I live in right now was repo'd around 2010, and my partner and I bought it in 2018; it had been vacant for almost a decade, and required a lot of work, almost as much as it cost, to get it safe. And it still needs work; I need to shore up the floor that's sagging, and the exterior walls need to be opened up from the inside and be fully sealed b/c I can feel breezes inside when it's windy outside.

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This concept has a name. Artificial Scarcity.

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[-] JennyLaFae@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 1 week ago

We don't have a resource problem, we have a distribution problem.

Resources are constantly being wasted to accelerate the wealth transfer up the chain.

[-] morrowind@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 week ago

The first thing you say is absolutely correct but I have no idea what you mean by the second

[-] JennyLaFae@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 1 week ago

Food being wasted instead of given out. Clothing slashed and tossed away. Housing boarded up and left vacant in the name of investing.

All in the name of maximizing sales and profit. Resources hoarded and wasted.

30% of the worlds resources would be sufficient to meet everyone's needs if properly distributed.

But it's not because corporations see a homeless man taking a sandwich out of the trash as a lost sale.

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[-] aesthelete@lemmy.world 6 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

We operate under the depression-era assumption that per-capita GDP is some kinda gold-standard metric for evaluating how well a country is doing economically. In reality per-capita GDP is just tracking the trash changing hands. We also overemphasize transactionality because of this. It's somehow much better from an "economic perspective" to have everyone buying new shirts every week even if it's the same people buying and then tossing the same fast fashion junk in the trash.

When you consider other metrics we could be judged by such as the OP is kinda pointing at here, our country looks way fucking worse on the leaderboard.

We ought to use the measures of the material conditions of our population to drive policy rather than how much currency has changed hands and how many worthless transactions have occurred.

[-] Jamablaya@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago

Yeah that's how Canada is pretending it's not been in a recession for years. Out of control housing market has inflated the GDP on paper, when everyone else can basically go fuck themselves I guess according to the government

[-] jjjalljs@ttrpg.network 6 points 1 week ago

Related: the idea that everyone needs to work all the time isn't really true anymore. If we were in like 3000 bce in a small farming village outside Ur, yeah, people gotta pitch in so we don't get eaten by wildlife, the neighboring tribe, or whatever.

But in 2025ce, where so many jobs have so much filler nonsense? And when the rich can just live on investment income? No, the whole "work or starve" thing isn't needed anymore.

We should have basic income for all and public housing. Let people pursue what they want. Maybe it's art. Maybe they just want to take care of the local library. Maybe they just want to be a local barfly that keeps the tavern interesting. Who knows? But wage slavery needs to go.

[-] AbsoluteChicagoDog@lemm.ee 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

We haven't needed to work since the early 1900s. The labor movement was all about getting people to work less and ensuring everyone is taken care of. Consumerism was invented to fight back and has been winning ever since. People are animals and animals can be manipulated.

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[-] 1984@lemmy.today 4 points 1 week ago

We also dont have enough water, living on a enormous water planet. :)

[-] 1984@lemmy.today 2 points 1 week ago

I dont think salt is an unsolvable problem. Its just that as usual, it needs to be profitable to solve it. Currently its just being used as a fake resource limitation. That problem would quickly be solved if humanity had to.

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this post was submitted on 21 Mar 2025
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