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Sly Flourish - Defending Out of the Fun
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this post was submitted on 31 May 2026
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INeedMana This all reflects the constant handwringing I see on the PF2e subreddit over that game. All discussion is optimization discussion, and all discussion is complaining about the direct effects of optimization. Or -- because bonus inflation is highly controlled in that system -- they're complaining about how it's so unfair that the game doesn't let you just break it, the way 3.x, 5.x, or PF1e does.
Players want to break the game, but then find the results of that confusing and angry making.
Pf2e was a really great move away from dnd 5e for me, but the longer I play it, the more I realize I think it's still not what I ultimately want. However, that's not due to the math or the numbers involved, which I think is probably the game's strongest aspect, or one of them.
iamthetot
I think at a time where the TTRPG scene is getting a little weirder, PF2e finds itself in this space as being the "traditional modern D&D game", which is both an interesting and a boring place to sit, depending on what one is looking for. It's not old school -- it's rooted in 3e, the first modern D&D edition -- but it's also not interesting in breaking conventions, either.
And, while it's an incredibly flexible system if you let it be, most of the audience that has grown around it are more rigid than diamond.
which is kinda funny because while you can't make a completely broken build and would really have to try to make a useless build. There is optimization. You can make something that maybe is out dpsing another character by like double still. I think maybe what frustrates them is oftentimes buffing and debuffing are the strongest things a character can do so they get to share in the dps glory or something.
HubertManne Yes, but what's become very obvious from hanging out in that space is that many, many players don't want to actually play these games. They just want to win them. And those are very different things. Many players are just looking for a pre-programmed turn rotation which... I mean, I'm not sure why they're playing a TTRPG at that point.
yeah I actually loved when the dm does all the dice rolling and everyone can just roleplay and even just say what they are doing and the dm sorta interprets it and maybe says if its not a good idea. Those are some dedicated hard working dms though. I love how tight the system is and so wish a crpg was made from it. Kinda was hoping the baldurs gate folks would. What i meant was though that they can kinda win. Start as a ranger if you want high dps or a barb if you want consitant dps or fighter for the crit fishing or magus to do the one big nuke per round. monk for movement and options or be like the sherlock holmes in the movie never making a wrong decision. they just need to decide what makes them happy. if im feeling lazy I do a bard if i want the dps I do a martial and my go to is druid which I kinda feel is the original gish.
HubertManne I started rolling for my table during our last session. It was, truly, an overwhelming experience, and I need to figure out a better system for managing it, but my players were beyond thrilled with the setup. It worked beyond even the most hopeful player's dreams. For them, at least. I'll figure out what I need to make it viable on my end.
I backed the PF2e and SF2e cRPG games on Kickstarter last year. They're both smaller projects that won't live up even to the Owlcat games, I'm sure, but I have hopes for them being good and interesting.
Even in the context of a video game, having nothing but a pre-programmed turn rotation sounds boring. There's a reason more modern MMOs never appealed to me on a gameplay level.
Even in a more video-gamey TTRPG (or, well, a video game), it's more fun for me to have enough options to be able to adapt to different in-world situations, even if that makes me weaker with each option. Give me FFXI's Red Mage (an adaptable generalist) over FFXIV's (a DPS with a good heal) any day.
Pteryx the Puzzle Secretary Yeah, I really don't get it. I honestly think people are playing games wrong, and I don't understand why.
It makes a *little* more sense in the context of video games, where some people's idea of "fun" is turning their brains off and mashing buttons.
In the context of TTRPGs, though, not only does the medium itself demand too much effort for "turning your brain off" to be viable, and not only is an easier alternative right at hand, but there's a whole other vista TTRPGs offer that video games don't that is being forgotten.
Pteryx the Puzzle Secretary There are games specifically designed for that, though. Though, I guess I do love a good Doom II run with cheat codes enabled, so I shouldn't be throwing too many stones in that direction.