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this post was submitted on 29 Jan 2024
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I had no idea there were so many people who were against a UBI on Lemmy. I'm honestly surprised.
There's a lot of effort to deny any previous UBI experiment as having even been done. Heck the top reply to your comment here denies this is even a UBI experiment. The line is usually the only way to do the experiment is to do it and that's the Socialisms so we can't ever know, sorry poors.
Well, since the "U" in UBI stands for "universal", and since the group of people who received this money were selected because they were very poor, then this is not a UBI experiment. This is just a welfare program.
Still could be considered an experiment just with a control factor being "the poors"
I've been surprised and super disappointed by a lot of the views I've been seeing in Lemmy comments lately. Anti homeless, judging addiction, fairly socially conservative, buying into the whole retail theft narrative, and the worst has been the misogyny framed as "realism" or some shit.
I don't know, it's not for me.
I've always found people have the most shit opinions if it's a post popular on Lemmy.world
I’m new to lemmy overall are there some places with better political discourse on here?
I've been lazy on Lemmy and just stopped searching for new lemmyverses after I hopped off reddit. But I really doubt you're gonna find good political discourse on the Internet. I'm really disappointed everywhere I turn and I'd rather participate in real life action than argue during the few free hours I have.
What is the retail theft narrative ?
The "narrative" is that theft hurts stores and stealing from stores in low-income areas causes them to close which leads to food deserts
Just pay attention to the instances the comments come from. This account is federated with .world and I am always seeing the most awful takes on here and it seems like most of the time it comes from users there.
I have another account not federated with .world, but it is with pretty much everything else. There's fewer comments (rarely over 100) but it's usually actual discussion and not revolving around anti-humanitarian practices.
It's not a guarantee, but it seems very very high.
It makes sense....I think the FOSS/anti-big tech world brings together a weird mix of far-left socialists and also libertarian types (hence the anti UBI sentiment)
IDK, I'm a leftist, and am skeptical about UBI because it's more of a free-market approach to solving a problems, rather than just directly solving problems. I.e. the government could just build more and better homeless housing, and expand section 8 to cover more of the cost and more people. I'm a bit afraid UBI would be used as an excuse to cut social programs, in a similar way that school vouchers are used to cut spending on education and leave families paying for what the vouchers don't cover.
Bingo. A UBI is attractive because the people that keep the economy rolling are nearly completely unable to access what the economy produces. Why are we trying to keep this broken mess limping along with a UBI? The economy is designed to produce poverty and a UBI will do very little to change that fact.
Plus lemmy has just as many shills and bots as reddit, that or it is the ultimate echo chamber, since you can ser pretty much copy paste answers on any controversial topics. The last one seems to be "LLMs are not real AI" (which, they are. Just not AGI)
This isn't UBI though. It's welfare. It just proves that people will use welfare support responsibly. A real test of UBI would be to give everyone in a community, not just a small pool of low income families the same amount (among other things). That ain't going to happen.
Fine, then people here are anti-welfare. Either way, it's a surprisingly conservative attitude.
I agree but some of the arguments here have a hint of truth in them such as the whole landlord thing. I think a lot of folk are wary of anything that sounds UBI related because it boils everything down to 'one simple fix'. Programs like this work, but they're only one piece in the puzzle such as taking housing off the market, higher taxes on the wealthy etc. I know you know this stuff. The UBI crowd takes theses studies and uses them to say 'UBI works' or 'UBI can work' even though it's not UBI.
That's a bit disengenuous. Of course people acknowledge that economic policy is difficult to experiment with.
People serious about UBI talk about phasing it in over a long period of time, in lieu of "experiments". For example in Australia we already have refundable tax rebates (I'm sure everyone has these I just don't know what they're called), all you'd have to do would be to introduce a $1,000 refundable tax rebate and increase that by $1,000 each year until you get to a reasonable UBI. If, along the way the data showed deleterious effects then you could correct or discontinue.
It's been done at a town level before, with the same results
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/2/19/21112570/universal-basic-income-ubi-map
I'd prefer decommodification of housing but UBI is probably a step in the right direction.
You're surprised that people who are far enough to the right to support genocide would oppose UBI?
It not that people are against everyone having the basics, it is that it mathematically makes no sense. As soon as you give everyone this money, not just a small trial you’ll see that it is immediately eaten in inflation, rent etc.
Much better is to make the first $1000 dollars not necessary. Free staple foods, free healthcare, free low tier usage on utilities, free local public transport.
Giving people $1000 means they can spend it specifically on the things they need. They might need to pay off a healthcare debt with that $1000 far more than they need low tier usage on their utilities.
I think a better idea that universal basic income is universal basic services. Give everyone equal access to healthcare, food, housing, etc. Not jobs, though. Giving everyone a job leads to creating jobs that don't need to exist just to make sure everyone has work. The USSR had guaranteed employment and that got to where you'd have to go through three different clerks at the supermarket to buy a pound of meat. Also, the State decided what was and wasn't "work". Oh, you're a painter? You think the State will pay you to paint? That's nice. Pick up that shovel and paint a ditch in the dirt. Oh, you are poet? I have a poem for you, comrade!
Roses are red, violets are blue, load those crates into that truck, or it's the gulag for you!
That would require an entire reworking of our economic system, whereas giving everyone $1000 a month would not.
I've been a proponent for UBI for a long time however after reading your comments I agree with you.
In reality, I've advocated for UBI because I feel the govt should provide these basic services. However in reality UBI does just seem like a means to an end.
We really should just redefine what "utilities" are (including internet, phone, public transit tickets, etc) and then provide basic access to utilities for free.
But there's no difference between giving someone $1000 for food and providing that food for free.
Either way the food is paid for by someone, whether the government hands over the check and then passes out the food, adding a layer of inefficiency, or the government hands out the check and the people buy the food, offering freedom of choice.
I feel somewhat against it simply because I don't think it's necessary once you make a certain point of money. Do people making six figures really need an extra 10% or less on top of that?
Means testing has been shown to cost significantly more. That’s why I’m a fan of universal programs and not welfare programs (like the one in this study).
I would argue someone making six figures getting 10% more will have a big impact still. Give everyone the benefit, even billionaires. Using your argument, the billionaire won’t care about getting an extra $1,000 - that’s nothing to them. But no one feels “cheated” because you arbitrarily put the limit, and you know no one else is cheating the system because there is no system to cheat!
Paying for universal programs would require changing our tax structure, which I’m also supportive of.
That's a good point. I hadn't considered about testing costs and people feeling cheated and people actually cheating.
I didn't feel strongly against it and I'm willing to change my mind, and you brought up some good points.
It does sound like a good idea tbh.
For an anecdotal example, when I was in my 20s I worked with an old lady at a fish market who had to strictly regulate the number of hours she worked in a year because she couldn't afford to make above a certain amount of money. If she went into the next higher tax bracket, she would've been kicked off her social security, and regardless of how many hours she worked, wouldn't be able to make up for the lost money.
Another interesting benefit I've heard of from a similar study that gave everybody above a certain age in a town $1,000 a month, but was focused on the impact to the labor pool, was that almost everybody continued to work except for in two categories: pregnant women and high-school students. This coincided with an increase in the average grades of high-school students, the number of kids who graduated, and the number of kids who continued on to college. The theory was that the kids who would normally have to work to help put food on the table were instead able to focus on their studies.
No, they don't, but I think the idea is that the process of factually verifying someone's actual income isn't worth the waste of just giving it to them anyway.