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submitted 3 weeks ago by fossilesque@mander.xyz to c/science_memes@mander.xyz

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[-] InvalidName2@lemmy.zip 70 points 3 weeks ago

Since this is Science Memes, I'm feeling emboldened to geek out a bit.

In my part of North America, there are a lot of pollinators besides bees "sexing up" the apple trees. I'm guessing it's that way in many other parts of the world, too.

On the coolest days, you might not see any bees at all, but the flower flies (aka hover flies) will still go for it. On the warmest days, bees may even be in the minority of pollinators. I see all kinds of different fly species, a multitude of different wasps, many types of beetles, and sometimes even moths and butterflies -- weather depending. Plus, even that time of year, there are often other bee species which are active besides just the invasive non-native honey bees.

[-] Cethin@lemmy.zip 12 points 3 weeks ago

I'm going to expand on the end bit: honey bees in the Americas are invasive European honey bees (meaning they aren't invasive to Europe, or Africa and Asia either). There used to be honey bees in the Americas, but they've been extinct for an incredibly long time.

[-] 9point6@lemmy.world 34 points 3 weeks ago

..... Don't we need more bees?

[-] Luci@lemmy.ca 34 points 3 weeks ago

Some of us have allergies to specific pollinators. I can’t have some honey without a scratchy throat.

Love bees! Can’t have what they make :((

[-] CosmicTurtle0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 18 points 3 weeks ago

You might have a superpower.

A LOT of honey in grocery stores are actually syrup but due to capitalism, there really is no real way to tell for sure.

If you are allergic, but won't die, from having honey, you might be able to make a guide for those of us that actually want real honey but have trouble trusting asshole companies.

[-] Luci@lemmy.ca 17 points 3 weeks ago

I’m lazy. Pass.

[-] meta4@retrolemmy.com 1 points 3 weeks ago

Love the brevity.

[-] mEEGal@lemmy.world 3 points 3 weeks ago

I mean... capitalism is the source of many problems, but probably not why we can't tell the difference between honey and counterfeit syrup sold as such

Chemistry is to blame here

[-] atomicbocks@sh.itjust.works 9 points 3 weeks ago

The allergens in honey are from where the honey was made. If you haven’t already you might try locally sourced honey as it will have the allergens that are already in the air where you live.

[-] Luci@lemmy.ca 10 points 3 weeks ago

I’m allergic to basically everything outside so I’m kinda boned.

[-] Droggelbecher@lemmy.world 24 points 3 weeks ago

We need more native pollinators, and honey bees are very good at outcompeting them once they're introduced, threatening biodiversity and thus ecosystems.

[-] 9point6@lemmy.world 10 points 3 weeks ago

Ah I'm in the UK where they are native pollinators

[-] Droggelbecher@lemmy.world 10 points 3 weeks ago

That doesn't mean that introducing them in unnatural numbers isn't harmful to biodiversity and other native pollinators

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[-] Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de 8 points 3 weeks ago

still not healthy for them to be 85% of what's pollinating crops, though

[-] TheLeadenSea@sh.itjust.works 4 points 3 weeks ago

Prime wherever you are that's not the UK defaultism to assume that honeybees are not native pollinators.

[-] Droggelbecher@lemmy.world 13 points 3 weeks ago

Breeding a native species in unnatural numbers is also a way of that species outcompeting other native species and harming biodiversity

[-] Cethin@lemmy.zip 2 points 3 weeks ago

You can narrow it down to just the Americas. The European honey bee (and subspecies) are native all across Europe, Asia, and Africa I believe.

[-] Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works 3 points 3 weeks ago

Here in Europe, the European Honeybee is, not surprisingly, completely native.

[-] Droggelbecher@lemmy.world 12 points 3 weeks ago

That doesn't mean that introducing them in unnaturally large numbers isn't harmful to biodiversity

[-] Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works 8 points 3 weeks ago

Oh yeah, them artificially displacing solitary bees is still bad

[-] Droggelbecher@lemmy.world 7 points 3 weeks ago

Agreed! But I don't really get what point you were trying to make in the first comment then?

[-] Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works 3 points 3 weeks ago

That the problem isn't "native vs invasive". It's "biodiversity vs monoculture".

[-] sad_detective_man@leminal.space 12 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

love how some people's plan for surviving ecological collapse is just to craft products (that they assume are) without the endangered ecology. like, good job the assignment was to save the damn bees but yeah I'm sure all the plants will be able to survive if we smear them with synthetic honey.

[-] logicbomb@lemmy.world 24 points 3 weeks ago

I assume this "bee-free honey" is more about veganism than about ecology.

[-] sad_detective_man@leminal.space 6 points 3 weeks ago

that would make sense. I'm unsure of whether it's helpful, but I forgot that goal of veganism could extend to domestic bees as well. are there any vegans who can clue me in on the thought process regarding bees?

[-] usernamesAreTricky@lemmy.ml 11 points 3 weeks ago

Honey production is not exactly exploitation free. For instance, queen bees often have their wings clipped or are intentionally killed to be replaced by another

Moreover, honey production also out competes native/wild bee populations which hurts them. Especially since honeybees are heavily used well outside their native ranges

We found compelling evidence that honey bee introductions indirectly decrease pollination by reducing nectar and pollen availability and competitively excluding visits from more effective native bees. In contrast, the direct impact of honey bee visits on pollination was negligible, and, if anything, negative. Honey bees were ineffective pollinators, and increasing visit quantity could not compensate for inferior visit quality

https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ecy.3939

[-] sad_detective_man@leminal.space 1 points 3 weeks ago

oh daaammn. okay that's what I was curious about. seems like every agriculture trade gets taken to fucked up places in order to meet the demands of industry. thanks for providing the link.

[-] bss03@infosec.pub 3 points 3 weeks ago

The way I had it described to me was that veganism is against the exploitation of all animals, including "stealing" honey from a hive.

But, "vegan" is a label at least as malleable as "Christian".

To some people, this Foie Gras might be vegan, if they can't find the exploitation. To others, large-scale U.S. produce might be non-vegan since it depends on exploitative labor (humans are animals) practices. To a few, mussels are vegan because there's no mind to suffer or be exploited. To a very few, plants that show a "pain" response are non-vegan, even if that response happens over time, as long as it has a clear trigger in human interference (which is expliotation due to the "pain"), despite the complete lack of a nervous system, which humans (and other animals) use to feel pain.

Anyway, I'm NOT a vegan, but I do try to limit my meat consumption. It just feels like the amount I used to eat isn't really globally sustainable, and I take up too many resources in to many other ways, too.

[-] sad_detective_man@leminal.space 1 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

ooh yeah that does sound like dumb fake concern. the relationship we have with bees is ideally pretty mutually beneficial and outside of the framework of an idea like theft. Christianity does seem like a good analoge for it. like there's people who obviously don't get the ethics of it beyond a aesthetic performance.

somebody else in the comments just told me that in industrial honey farms will do things like clip the wings of queens to prevent them from moving colonies away so I can understand the concern there though. or that domestic bee colonies disrupt local wild ones which is also valid.

I'm of the same mindset as you then. something I realized a while back is there are humane ways of doing agriculture but the demands of capitalism have forced us to take the exploitation of animals and workers to insane body horror places. I don't think I can live animal product free but I absolutely respect people who do and I'm definitely invested in changing our economy into one that doesn't require infinite growth at the cost of all this suffering.

[-] Zerush@lemmy.ml 3 points 3 weeks ago

This one?

[-] Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works 7 points 3 weeks ago

Saving "the bees" is easy, since bees in general are doing fine.

Saving solitary wild bees the real task, and that's much harder.

[-] sad_detective_man@leminal.space 3 points 3 weeks ago

I don't think they are. I could have swore that the looming death of most pollinators was on the horizon.

[-] LeeeroooyJeeenkiiins@hexbear.net 1 points 3 weeks ago

Without looking it up I can confidently tell you that bee free honey isn't about "avoiding ecological collapse affecting a product," it's about vegans giving waaaay too much of a shit about bees to the point that honey is "not vegan"

[-] sad_detective_man@leminal.space 1 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

i like to give people the benefit of the doubt. sure there's a specific kind of environmentally concerned person who will create ineffectual solutions to non-problems because they either don't actually know about the animal or they are just gritting but I try to hear it from the horse's mouth before I assume it's entirely unhelpful

all I have to go on are the local beekeepers I've met and they're a far different operation from what I imagine wholesale honey industry looks like. it could be as wide of a gap between the ethics of sustenance livestock vs industrial but I don't know

[-] mvirts@lemmy.world 12 points 3 weeks ago

Bee exploitation free honey

[-] OhStopYellingAtMe@lemmy.world 4 points 3 weeks ago

Bee sexploitation free honey

[-] ikidd@lemmy.world 8 points 3 weeks ago

So the fake sugar-water honey is trying to premiumize their shit product?

[-] usualsuspect191@lemmy.ca 8 points 3 weeks ago

Is it really honey if not made by bees?

[-] KombatWombat@lemmy.world 1 points 3 weeks ago

Probably not, but we still call non-dairy substitutes "milk" other than some countries that regulate the label. Language tends to go by what it resembles rather than the process to generate it.

[-] usualsuspect191@lemmy.ca 1 points 3 weeks ago

I did think of the milk example, but I'd argue that's not quite an apt comparison as milk is sort of a generic term for similar things from different sources and often just any white liquid. If we had a different, special word for just cow's milk for example, it'd be weird to call anything else by that name.

I'd argue the equivalent term to "milk" in this case would be syrup. There are many types of syrup, but we specifically use "honey" to mean "syrup made by bees".

[-] Snowclone@lemmy.world 1 points 3 weeks ago

I don't accept it.

[-] Zerush@lemmy.ml 6 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Remember me to an label on a brick with milk "from certified farmers". Before I thought it was from cows.

[-] wieson@feddit.org 4 points 3 weeks ago

Are you guys just renaming Appelstroop?

[-] LeeeroooyJeeenkiiins@hexbear.net 3 points 3 weeks ago

im assuming this apple based honey is for vegans so if any of y'all have tried it let me know how it would work as a honey substitute in cooking recipes, the best solution I've found so far is to ignore my chefs who tell me not to use corn syrup and mix that with brown sugar. It's obviously not the same as honey but better than just going "ah fuck it just skip it"