126

It's like these libs believe that Kamala is entitled to our vote.

If I didn't vote for PSL, then I simply would not vote! It's not "PSL or Kamala;" it's "PSL or sit on my ass at home."

I know libs don't understand nuance, but it still is so frustrating that they put this framing on me where they assume that I have any actual interest in a Kamala president over a Trump presidency.

Not only that, but this person called Claudia de la Cruz a "clowny leftist with no choice of winning" (which isn't the point of a third party vote; let's be real), but I just told the lib, "You call her clowny, but you are literally guilt tripping and insulting me just because I won't vote for someone who is actively greenlighting a genocide on Palestinians." and then I blocked.

Whether Trump or Kamala wins, I'll enjoy social media outrage from either side, but it seems like what I'll see from liberals in the case of a Trump election will be more entertaining. I truly think libs are beyond being redeemed, and that even goes for the more "progressive" types who appropriate the label of "democratic socialist" like Bernie and AOC. I don't adhere to lesser-evilism, so I'm not gonna pretend that this one-party state with two parties has one side over the other functioning in a way that could especially benefit me.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[-] Dirt_Owl@hexbear.net 75 points 3 weeks ago

Liberals: We have to save democracy!

Also liberals: But also you don't get to choose who to vote for

[-] ThermonuclearEgg@hexbear.net 54 points 3 weeks ago

Also liberals: We're better than China because we have two parties you don't get to choose between instead of one

[-] TowardsTheFuture@lemmy.zip 34 points 3 weeks ago

God dude I had someone yesterday be like “listen if the vote is between a salad and a cyanide pill you can’t vote for pizza just because you want it. You have to vote for salad.” And I’m just… yall just out here saying vote for Kamala or kill yourself? And you’re complaining the other party is facist?

[-] miz@hexbear.net 18 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

what, you don't remember during Trump's first term when he killed every single American? he'll do it again!

[-] VILenin@hexbear.net 34 points 3 weeks ago

You have to save democracy, which is why we’ve simplified the process for you by removing all of the incorrect candidates from the ballot.

[-] jack@hexbear.net 12 points 3 weeks ago

Helldivers satire too subtle

[-] roux@hexbear.net 65 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I stick by my guns. All she literally had to do was say she was going to stop sending bombs to Israel for their genocide and to acknowledge that trans rights need to be protected and that she would at the very least work towards passing legislation for those things. That's all she needed to do and she'd have gotten my worthless red state vote.

ETA: Fuck Kamala Harris. ACAB.

[-] Belly_Beanis@hexbear.net 31 points 3 weeks ago

...and not even follow through with any of it lol. She'd win while still supporting Isreal. Really easy to do but she can't just put the mask back on for five minutes and wait for the election to be over. Harris has to just rub everyone's noses in it.

[-] roux@hexbear.net 8 points 3 weeks ago

Exactly, not even follow through at all. I'll take empty face-saving promises from a piece of shit candidate over laughing at dead Palestinians with her shit-eating "I'm speaking" catch phrase like some Simpsons caricature of herself. Our system is fucking broken so it really doesn't matter.

load more comments (2 replies)
[-] Cowbee@hexbear.net 48 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

It's especially funny when they skin leftists and wear their faces, talk a big game, but never go through with any organizational efforts and just vote dem. Or, it would be funny, if it wasn't tragic. Scratch a lib, and a fascist bleeds and all that.

That said, most liberals aren't "beyond redemption," or at least can still be educated and radicalized IMO, we just need to adapt our tactics to newfound results. I imagine I'm not the only former liberal on this site. Debatebroing like I used to do wasn't generally useful. As Imperialism dies, material conditions shift, and more people can be turned towards Leftism, it's important to steer this natural process of radicalization than it is to debatelord IMO.

[-] Angel@hexbear.net 31 points 3 weeks ago

To be fair, you have a point there. Even I was a lib at one point, but that was way early on when I first started caring about politics, and I wasn't even an adult back then.

It's possible to change minds, but so many of them give off the vibe that they are too stubborn to ever examine the dialectic properly. Situations like these piss me off enough to the point of forgetting that minds can be changed.

[-] Cowbee@hexbear.net 22 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

To be fair, you have a point there. Even I was a lib at one point, but that was way early on when I first started caring about politics, and I wasn't even an adult back then.

Fair point! Grew out of liberalism in high-school as well.

It's possible to change minds, but so many of them give off the vibe that they are too stubborn to ever examine the dialectic properly. Situations like these piss me off enough to the point of forgetting that minds can be changed.

100%, if you ever saw my Lemmy.ml account all I did with it was debatelord against libs, usually .worlders. I understand exactly what you're talking about here, my point is more that this stubborness isn't an immutable characteristic but one that changes with the Material Conditions. As they decay, the ideas they find acceptable change, and then become more susceptible. Most stubborn turbolibs are privledged, so it takes longer for them to feel the pain others do. However, even among detetiorating conditions, of course cracker cishet men are going to be impacted the least, so many of course are unreachable.

[-] SevenSkalls@hexbear.net 8 points 3 weeks ago

Tbh I miss your ml account debates. It helped assure me that I wasn't the crazy one to see at least one other person agreed with me and give good arguments. But I understand stopping for your own mental health.

[-] Cowbee@hexbear.net 8 points 3 weeks ago

I may take it back up again eventually, but right now .world is cracking down hard, they perma'd my account on Political Memes for "misinformation."

I don't intend on dropping combatting liberalism, but instead shifting it to a more effective path. .worlders are largely inconvertible right now, so the best way isn't to fight directly on their turf. Still trying to figure out what a better way to do so is, though I intend on joining FRSO once my life stabilizes more, and doing actual organizing.

load more comments (4 replies)
[-] frauddogg@hexbear.net 17 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

That said, liberals aren't "beyond redemption,"

Except for the fact that they're knowingly backing literal genocide. These aren't 2012 semi-malleable liberals, these are collaborators, compradorés, and kapos.

Death to the settlers; death to their empire.

[-] Cowbee@hexbear.net 18 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I don't disagree, my point is more that most aren't proletarianized enough by Imperialist decay to give a fuck. The "true believers?" Fuck them entirely. The ignorant masses? Most can still be persuaded IMO, but have varying degrees of malleability.

The horrible fucking truth is that most of the Amerikkkan people don't give a shit beyond their white picket fences. They are liberals out of convenience, the ones privledged enough to sleepwalk through life, but fortunately for us they can be persuaded when eventually they must care. Are these the most moral people? Absolutely fucking not.

I dunno, maybe I have more internal liberalism I need to kill, but converting libs to comrades still seems possible to me, and necessary for revolution. They just need to kill their inner liberal as well.

[-] 2Password2Remember@hexbear.net 14 points 3 weeks ago

That said, liberals aren't "beyond redemption," IMO,

i cant agree with this. anybody who witnessed the government murder over a million people with COVID and then a few short years later double down on supporting the genocide of palestinians is indeed irredeemable. the only libs who aren't are those who aren't really interested in politics enough to be paying attention.

Death to America

[-] Cowbee@hexbear.net 17 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Depends. There are ideological full liberals, and there are liberal bystanders that believe their hands are tied. The majority aren't the former, the "true believers," the majority don't care enough because they aren't proletarianized enough.

[-] Erika3sis@hexbear.net 48 points 3 weeks ago

It's not "PSL or Kamala;" it's "PSL or sit on my ass at home."

A thing I thought recently is that the types who will outright harass you for not voting for Harris have the same logic as anti-adblock: give me stern warnings about how I'm violating site TOS, and force me to sit through the ads, but I'm still not going to click on the ads — that is after all why I was using an adblocker! So they've really just wasted their own bandwidth and my own time.

Alternatively, it's the same logic as anti-piracy, where every pirated copy of something is seen as lost money, as if every single person who pirated something Would've bought the thing using "legal means" If Only all the pirate sites were taken down... And so they force me to go from one site to the next, as if with just enough pressure I actually would shell out wads of cash for My Shows instead of just finding other things to waste my time on.

[-] EllenKelly@hexbear.net 46 points 3 weeks ago

I don't even get a vote and I've had to listen to american liberals talk about how I am trying to destroy the country for months, tell these dweebs you're voting PSL for me lol

[-] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmygrad.ml 27 points 3 weeks ago

I don’t even get a vote and I’ve had to listen to american liberals talk about how I am trying to destroy the country for months

:sad sicko emoji:

[-] EllenKelly@hexbear.net 14 points 3 weeks ago

We're all trying in our own ways 😤

load more comments (1 replies)
[-] came_apart_at_Kmart@hexbear.net 38 points 3 weeks ago

the "you are wasting your vote when you vote for someone who won't win" is one of those weird frames that Democrats have been deploying since I was young.

it's so deeply stupid it's hard to know where to begin. it made me want to say that I would only vote for whoever looked like was most certain of victory so that I could support the winner and therefore win at this game of voting and brag about being in the winning team.

[-] RedWizard@hexbear.net 26 points 3 weeks ago

The only votes that matter are in swing states, and even then, probably down to swing counties. The race at this point is decided by like what, 100,000 people maybe? People want to believe that "Every vote counts!" but, they don't, that's called a popular vote, and we don't do that here.

[-] ProletarianDictator@hexbear.net 20 points 3 weeks ago

"Swing counties" don't matter, only state totals.

Dems & their media like to hype up the importance of those counties so they can focus on appealing to conservatives rather than running up the score in urban centers with a progressive agenda.

If Kamala wanted to win, she'd be running for president of Philadelphia, not running ads on how she wants to deport everyone like she's been doing.

load more comments (1 replies)
[-] 2Password2Remember@hexbear.net 20 points 3 weeks ago

it made me want to say that I would only vote for whoever looked like was most certain of victory so that I could support the winner and therefore win at this game of voting and brag about being in the winning team.

this framing is pretty much what libs have internalized. everybody knows, on some level, that there's no hope of turning off the child murdering machine, so there's nothing left to get excited about except whether the child murdering machine will be painted red or blue

Death to America

[-] 2Password2Remember@hexbear.net 36 points 3 weeks ago

imagine being such an entitled little baby that you think you deserve the opportunity to vote against genocide 😂😂

Death to America

[-] sweet_pecan@hexbear.net 26 points 3 weeks ago

WOOOOO VOTE PSL. DOES EVERYONE HAVE A PLAN TO VOTE??

[-] miz@hexbear.net 13 points 3 weeks ago

[the song "Gloria" but the lyrics are reworked and the chorus is "CLAUDIA! CLAUDIA!"]

[-] bbnh69420@hexbear.net 11 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Already voted for them!

[-] ProletarianDictator@hexbear.net 25 points 3 weeks ago

Dems chose centrist Republicans with their policy agenda. Go focus your attention on them if you can't muster up meaningful policy to appeal to leftists.

YOU MADE THE TRADE, DONT BE MAD YOU CANT HAVE BOTH!

I'd be #khive right now if Biden stopped providing Israel with weapons. Instead, you are losing my vote forever by excusing genocide. Good job 👍 Hope rehabilitating Dick Chaney was worth it!

[-] beef_curds@hexbear.net 22 points 3 weeks ago

Not sure where you live, but if you don't live in a swing state, you're wasting your vote if you DON'T vote third party.

Matching public campaign funds are calculated nationally. If you're in a solid red/blue state then you're 100% wasting your vote on a major party, because they opt out of public funds, an your vote isn't going to change a built-in 10% difference in the tally. But if you vote 3rd party, you're voting into a national pool that could potentially get that 3rd party automatic ballot access and matching federal funds for campaigning.

So if you're like the majority of us, in a state that doesn't matter, then you can just levy the accusation right back at them and ask why they're wasting their vote.

[-] CommunistCuddlefish@hexbear.net 16 points 3 weeks ago

No matter where you live you're wasting your vote if you don't vote third party

load more comments (1 replies)
[-] josie@vegantheoryclub.org 15 points 3 weeks ago

Not sure where you live, but if you don’t live in a swing state, you’re wasting your vote if you DON’T vote third party.

This is exactly what I don't understand about this claim lol. Why the fuck does it matter if someone from Minnesota or New York for example votes for a third party. The republicans haven't won MN or NY in decades.

[-] Angel@hexbear.net 8 points 3 weeks ago

Interestingly enough, this lib is from NY.

[-] CommunistCuddlefish@hexbear.net 19 points 3 weeks ago

I truly think libs are beyond being redeemed, and that even goes for the more "progressive" types who appropriate the label of "democratic socialist" like Bernie and AOC.

I used to think they could be moved left -- after all, many did -- but at this point I no longer believe that. So many of the libs who "moved left" under Trump, at least that I know, are now ride or die for Kdolf Hitler. If they won't grow a soul and reject liberalism because of genocide, they're beyond rehabilitating and aren't worth my time anymore. I'd rather engage with the politically unengaged than with the politically engaged liberal. The unengaged can be woken up to the truth, the engaged liberals see the truth and don't care.

[-] GoodGuyWithACat@hexbear.net 19 points 3 weeks ago

"The only wasted vote is a vote for something you don't believe in."

I heard this from a libertarian but it's still good to throw out.

[-] sovietknuckles@hexbear.net 16 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Guy on an electric bike asked if I would stop funding the genocide in Gaza so he would vote for me and I told him I'm not really "into stopping funding genocides right now" and he said "that's cool" and let me rant about means-tested healthcare but when it was over he said "that's what you're missing" and scooted off into the distance

[-] Barx@hexbear.net 8 points 3 weeks ago

American political engagement is thoroughly atomized. Americans have no immediate political vehicles for their frustrations or ideals outside of things like charity, they have no ideological struggle into which they can plug in as community or a real participatory agent. Instead, they have media "discourse", like TV, radio, podcasts, streamers, YouTube videos, where their role is as an observer slotting themselves into the chair of some pundit and seeing how far they can agree with or defend them. They do not curiously investigate and inform themselves on a topic, but they feel desperate to have an opinion so that they can "win" and be condescending to their "enemies". Under this thought regime, "I don't know " is a sign of weakness and means you aren't political and don't care and aren't a good person.

It's important to understand that, accorsingly, Americans' political opinions are usually worthless, they are inconsistent propaganda premisesed on contrarian aggressiveness and dismissiveness with nothing below the surface to back it up. This is annoying but it is also fragile, so you, as a much cooler person that does know things, can have a lot of power over a conversation and can go in basically any direction that you would like to - so long as you practice keeping your cool (not that they deserve it, it is just a valuable tool).

For example, let's say this is a friend or family member and you want to convince them. This is actually mostly about how much they like you and whether you can get them to listen to positive cases for what you advocate for. If you make them feel good for listening to you and get them to watch some videos or read a book or attend actions, you will probably eventually win, as in get them to adopt much better positions. They may need to process this information for some time and may come back to you to tell you about them as if they made these discoveries all on their own and without your help, lol. It can be useful to debunk some of the things they say, but without a displacing narrative they will probably not have a good way to resolve the cognitive dissonance this creates. For example, why support PSL? Well you can provide your own case of course, but I might say something like, "we need to advance socialist working class organizations to build a just alternative for humanity's sake and this is one small and easy way to do so." You can of course say why the two genocidal capitalist parties are inadequate, but this will lead to long and rambling discussions. And while doing so, you want a calm, patient, and friendly attitude where what you really want them to do is to read Blackshirts and Reds or something. You want to get to the point of making a specific ask because them understanding your perspective is important to you and it would be a supportive thing for them to do and you will read it with them. That kind of thing. Or get them to join a propaganda action. Move them towards personal connection and involvement. Obviously there is a caveat: if the person is abusive towards you disregard all advice and take care of yourself.

Or let's say they are an acquaintance and you just want to shut them up. Well then you can be critical as shot. They will fall apart in seconds.

[-] rando895@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 3 weeks ago

Do people who vote for Trump say a similar thing?

Regardless, maybe from here on out if someone says "A vote for third party is a vote for X!" Just tell them "Ohh I didn't know, I'll just vote for X then".

load more comments (1 replies)
[-] infuziSporg@hexbear.net 6 points 3 weeks ago

Now I want to know what the Mayan glyph for KAMALA is.

load more comments
view more: next ›
this post was submitted on 31 Oct 2024
126 points (95.7% liked)

chapotraphouse

13545 readers
690 users here now

Banned? DM Wmill to appeal.

No anti-nautilism posts. See: Eco-fascism Primer

Gossip posts go in c/gossip. Don't post low-hanging fruit here after it gets removed from c/gossip

founded 3 years ago
MODERATORS