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Do any of them know what the word "liberal" actually means?

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[-] Neon@lemmy.world -4 points 6 months ago

Don't know why you're being downvoted.

Liberal literally means free. As in "If it doesn't harm me, you're allowed to do it". So yes, openminded, permissive, tolerant.

Don't know why a lot of the US-Americans had to twist the meaning of it.

[-] rockSlayer@lemmy.world 15 points 6 months ago

Because in politics, liberal means something else entirely. It's an ideology defined by support for capitalism.

[-] Amputret@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 6 months ago

Free as in markets, not free as in people.

[-] maxenmajs@lemmy.world 3 points 6 months ago

I understand we don't like capitalism on Lemmy, but I'm curious how liberalism fares versus the other capitalism-supporting ideologies that are more commonly found in the world.

[-] rockSlayer@lemmy.world 8 points 6 months ago

I've thought about this for most of the day. Social Democracy (think Denmark, Norway, Sweden, etc) is probably the best out of all capitalist ideologies, but is still subject to the regressive nature of private capital. Other than that, most of them are complete dogshit. Capitalist monarchies, "anarcho-capitalism" (read neo-feudalism), US libertarianism, capitalist oligarchy, fascism*, etc are awful for regular people and horribly lacking in their analysis of capital and it's relationship between the capitalists and workers. We're currently living under neoliberal democracy, so imagine things getting much worse for us. That's what most of those ideologies are like.

* it should be noted that fascism is mostly just a death cult that loves hierarchies like capitalism.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 6 months ago

Fascism isn't merely a randomly appearing death cult, but the violent death throes of crumbling Capitalism. Where Capitalism is failing, fascism rises. That's why Leftists must thoroughly stomp out fascism while also pushing for Socialism.

[-] Cryophilia@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

In European politics.

American liberals do not support free markets. They're advocates of greater regulation amd stronger unions.

[-] rockSlayer@lemmy.world -1 points 6 months ago

yes, they do. Both* US political parties are neoliberal parties. Regulation of markets is still a free market. Unions do not inherently oppose free markets either.

* must go back at least 10 years for this to be true for Republicans

[-] Cryophilia@lemmy.world -1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Stop prevaricating.

More regulation = less free markets. It's a spectrum, not a light switch. Dems want more restricted markets. Repubs want more free markets.

[-] rockSlayer@lemmy.world 0 points 6 months ago

It sounds to me like you don't know what a market economy is.

[-] Cryophilia@lemmy.world -1 points 6 months ago

It’s a spectrum, not a light switch.

Truth so obvious it should be self evident, and yet here we are

[-] Klear@lemmy.world -5 points 6 months ago

In Americans politics, and you guys are completely bonkers.

[-] rockSlayer@lemmy.world 8 points 6 months ago

No, not just in American politics. Liberal politics is a very specific thing.

[-] Cryophilia@lemmy.world -1 points 6 months ago

It's actually specifically not true in American politics.

Liberal in America = left wing, favors greater regulation of markets

[-] alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml 10 points 6 months ago

The Israeli flag guy would think freedom means the freedom to exploit others.

[-] daltotron@lemmy.world 4 points 6 months ago

"free" means nothing though, it's just a substitute for other values. It's not just free as in "if it doesn't harm me, you're allowed to do it". As another commenter pointed out, one person, they would espouse the freedom to have and own and use guns for self-defense, right? I could just as easily make the argument that guns, collectively, when this right is enabled, impinge on my freedom not to live in a gun-free, potentially less violent, or at least less lethal, society. The freedom provided by publically subsidized or collective single payer healthcare, vs the freedom to "not have to pay for everyone else's healthcare. If I just rely on freedom as a value, it indicates nothing. It's a sock puppet ideology. There's always another value there which is being substituted for it. Liberalism can't just equal freedom, or else it's just totally meaningless. While it does have a broad specific meaning as it refers to a specific school of thought, it's not totally meaningless as it otherwise would be.

Liberalism is a political and economic philosophy which espouses the merits of the free market as a collective decision making structure, which can allocate resources according to price signals. I.e. take resources in the economy and allocate them to where they best need to go, which is sort of what any idea of the economy has to do. It also generally espouses an idea of a naturally occurring meritocracy and rational actors, which the free market relies upon to be of real merit. At the extreme end you get shit like idiot anarcho-capitalism and the austrian school of economics, which is very resistant to government interventionism and kind of holds a religious adherence to free markets and their freedom from governance or regulation by governments. Guys like adam smith. Maybe in the middle you have more standard forms of liberalism, that still support free markets, but also support a pretty decent government and sort of see the two as being opposed to one another. Probably that would slot in a little more into neoliberalism, on the side of markets, and then classical liberalism leaning more towards government intervention. And then on the far end you get shit like nordic government and social democracy more broadly, which would try to engage in capitalism while still building out large support structures, as generally opposed to democratic socialism which seeks to basically eliminate conventional capitalism altogether. You also maybe get "market socialism" somewhere in there, inasmuch as a kind of inherently contradictory ideology like that can exist.

None of what I said really has any commentary on general social issues. You won't find it in there, in any of those mostly economic philosophies, you won't find positions on gay rights or trans rights, generally, civil rights more broadly, or drug use, or crime and punishment. There's not any position on civil rights more broadly which is specifically intrinsic to any of those philosophies. Nothing on "open-mindedness". The same could be said of communism, or really any economic philosophy outside of like, normal fascism, which everyone kind of has a hard time defining. Libs, mostly, but I won't elaborate on that one until you press me on it.

In any case, that's what liberalism as an economic philosophy all tends to mean, tends to refer to, that's the larger, broader category. As you might intuit, it's mostly just kind of, "capitalism", in it's many different forms. None of this is meaning-twisting, this is all just shit that's existing in the academic literature for a long while. I'm not a language prescriptivist, so I'm not going to say that it's wrongly used, when it's not strictly conforming to academic definitions, and I will freely admit that most of the reference I see to it in colloquial conversation is kind of just like, to mean "woke", you know, to refer more to socially progressive outlooks more broadly. But I think it's important to question kind of why that is, why it's seen as this thing that's only kind of half-invisible to the population, why it's completely divorced, colloquially, from any economic definition, and instead just refers to like, ahh, that guy, that guy's a lib, that guy thinks black people should have rights, what a lib cuck, kind of a thing.

Tracking the warping of language is a pretty important thing to do, because it tells you all about the intentionality with which it's used, the broader political strategy, the core philosophies of the people using it, it tells you where they've come from and what they're referring to. More specifically, these kinds of changes of meaning that take place within certain words, they serve to cordon off, or, serve as an evidence of the cordoning off, of certain populations from others. The word is transformed in such a way as to make communication between groups impossible, and is also transformed in such a way as to totally eliminate that to which it previously was in reference to.

I don't think using liberal to mean "socially progressive" is necessarily the wrong way to do things, but I do think that the academic definition, the academic reference, the idea there, it still has a lot of value. If one serves to obfuscate the other's shorthand, I would find that to be kind of a tragedy.

[-] Aux@lemmy.world -1 points 6 months ago

You should either replace Ukrainian flag with a Russian one or Israeli flag with Palestinian.

this post was submitted on 14 May 2024
428 points (85.0% liked)

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