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Absolutely nothing happened June 1989
(lemmy.world)
And if something did maybe happen, it's the CIA's fault
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this post was submitted on 09 Oct 2024
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Lemmy.world absolutely isn't Leftist, it's overwhelmingly liberal and the mods are anti-Marxist, even defederating from Marxist instances. Lemmy.world is allowed to be a liberal instance, but pretending it's socialist is silly.
Leftist messaging is increasingly popular as Capitalism decays, but that doesn't mean everyone has read theory. Lemmy.world is largely populated by liberals sympathetic to an idealistic form of Socialism that is pure fantasy, and denounce AES as a betratal of Socialism. Blackshirts and Reds has an entire chapter dedicated to western "left" anticommunism.
I'm a Marxist-Leninist, I believe Marxism to be correct and try to get others to read theory. I get deep satisfaction whenever someone changes their mind or reads theory because of what I comment and post.
On what grounds do you say this? Revolution is happening all around the world every few years in different states, as Capitalism decays more people become sympathetic to leftism. It will likely happen latest in Imperialist countries like the US, where living standards are inflated by hyper-exploitation of the Global South, and happens all the time in the Global South. Trends exist, systems aren't static, Capitalism cannot last forever. That would be like believing water could be continuously heated and never boil.
To be clear, most Marxists don't need to "ackshually" each other, just towards liberals. Liberals often have the same misconceptions, that doesn't mean they aren't changing their minds individually.
So those people calling it neoliberal are fucking liars
Yeah, basically. 'Neoliberal' and 'lib' are just snarl words many tankies use to mean "Anyone less fascist than Mao".
In general, .world is much less radical than many places on Lemmy. But they're far from neoliberals. The average poster is slightly left of a Berniecrat, probably; that is to say, either a very strong SocDem or a very weak DemSoc.
Listen all I'm saying is that if we were so far left that Bernie was center right on policy the country would be a much better place for everyone.
Wouldn't it be lovely? Unfortunately, we've got a lot of fighting on the ground to convince our fellow citizens to get their asses there instead of some weird 90s fantasy world.
Thanks for calling tankies what they are: fascist.
Read Blackshirts and Reds, Socialism and Fascism are entirely incompatible and serve entirely different classes.
I'm theory, yes. In practice the idea of socialism has been hijacked and subverted by the same ruling class to serve their nefarious needs time and time again. Y'all should focus instead on how socialism is incompatible with authoritarianism. "Power to the people" my ass.
No, it has not. Read Blackshirts and Reds, which I already linked. Communist movements served the Proletariat, not the Bourgeoisie. They also were by no means perfect "worker's paradises." Another good article is *Why Do Marxists Fail to Bring the "Worker's Paradise?" if you can only spare 20 minutes and not read a whole book.
You should read On Authority, Marx and Engels were constantly hounded as "authoritarian" for advocating for central planning.
Thanks for linking the article. I like most of its points, but I don't agree with this materialistic outlook that the economic development is the be-all and end-all solution to implementing "true" socialism.
I believe that the root cause of all attempts of it failing so far is that humans are selfish assholes. Unless everyone bar none starts caring about their brethren and sistren at least as much as they care about themselves, the system can't work. It's simply too prone to being overtaken by bad faith actors who will inevitably abuse it for self serving purposes in the name of "socialism".
Well maybe these two guys were a product of their time and had some not-so-good ideas, so not every word of theirs should be taken as a gospel.
There's no such thing as "true socialism," that's part of the point of the article.
Why do you think Socialism cares about thinfs like self-serving people?
Not as gospel, sure, but they have been proven correct.
Sure, but it provided a reason why the previous attempts of it failed, and in my opinion it's only a part of the equation.
Socialism can not care, as it's is not a conscious entity. Socialism can only "care" about whatever the people that are trying to implement it care about. And it failed every time in large part, IMO, because people didn't care about things like self-serving people.
Proven correct by whom? Soviet Union which fell apart? North Korea that haven't collapsed yet only because it's propped by China? China which had Mao starve tens of millions people to death and is currently successful only because it's full blown capitalist and "communist" in name only?
If it worked we'd still have Soviet Union today.
We seem to have different definitions of what "working" means. What I've got from the article, which glosses over the inconvenient facts (like how much of China's success can be attributed to western capitalists moving all of their manufacturing to China), is that you can do whatever the fuck you want and still call it socialism. And your fans will believe you, because they don't care to look deeper beneath the label. The party line trumps all.
So what is the Great Chinese Famine then? Another inconvenient fact in the sea of inconvenient facts that you chose to close your eyes to? Do you think that lying to yourself and everyone else about historical facts like this one gives you a moral high ground over Nazi sympathizers who deny holocaust?
Sorry, can't respond here fully, the moderators here censor comments with facts that don't fit their anti-Marxist narrarive. I never denied that the Great Chinese Famine existed either, I pointed out that famine was common in China pre-Mao and during Mao there was one final famine, because of improvements in agriculture that happened under Mao. Blaming Mao for the immense poverty and brutality of existing conditions pre-Mao that he couldn't possibly fix overnight is silly.
From the article I linked (and you haven't read evidently despite my insistence):
"This argument is just silly as Mao inherited one of the poorest countries in the world. Mao came to power in 1949. Between 1900–1948 the country was engulfed in poverty and famine. Let us simply take a look at few. Here I will simply go off the Wikipedia page List of famines in China and if the body count is within a range I will take the middle of the range.
Total = 36 million dead from famine between 1900–1948
If we divide this number by the amount of years, fourty-nine, we find that about 735,000 people died of famine per year on average before Mao even came to power."
Eh, it's a mixed bag. There's a very high concentration of centrist, "vote blue, no matter who," liberals in Political Memes. They're not the whole instance, but they've made a nice little echo chamber that makes them a pretty loud minority.
The people who think .world is socialist also think socialism is when the government does things and that social democracy is a type of socialism and not a type of liberalism.
This is especially evident the way they get whipped into a froth any time actually existing (and former) socialist countries get brought up.
Socialism is when the CIA goes in and kills your leader right?
The CIA tried to kill Charles DeGaulle in 1961, but if the CIA isn't trying to kill your leader, you're not doing socialism.
It's funny that all the "AES" countries that are brought up are just authoritarian states, and sometimes, for that matter, authoritarian capitalist states. It's almost like the people championing these supposedly socialist countries are just fascists painted red.
I still don't get how the far leftists (the types who think soc dems are basically the same as any flavor of lib, including libertarian, neolib, etc) are so convinced that socialism is the answer when there hasn't been a country that even comes close to making it work. I guess China works for certain values of working, but it's pretty capitalist these days, and you've got an overbearing government that goes along with it.
Whereas countries like you see in Scandinavia, with strong soc dem policies under capitalism like high taxes on wealth and strong safety nets, seem to be doing pretty well. I get why socialism would be good in theory but implementing it is another story.
The Nordics still fucking suck, trust me.
Is there any country that doesn't suck?
not to my knowledge :(
every time Finland gets awarded the title of the happiest country I wonder how unhappy all the other countries must be
The short answer is that Socialism does work, and continues to work, and that SocDem countries like the Nordics depend on heavy exploitation of the Global South to fund their safety nets and still see shrinking worker power (a process Marxists call imperialism).
The longer answer is that Marxists don't believe Socialism is better than Capitalism for any moral reason, but because they are Dialectical and Historical Materialists. They track where Capitalism is necessarily heading, ie free competition gives way to monopolist syndicates with internal planning, socializing themselves and making them ripe for public ownership and central planning.
Similarly, the PRC is a Socialist Market Economy. The model is described as a birdcage, the CPC allows markets to naturally develop but only along their guidelines, and increases ownership as competition creates these new monopolist syndicates. Socialism Developed China, Not Capitalism is a good article going over China's economic model. The CPC has the power it has as a Dictatorship of the Proletariat, it needs that power to maintain supremacy over their bourgeoisie. Communism is achieved by degree, not decree.
A good primer is Why do Marxists Fail to Bring the "Worker's Paradise?" an excellent article that goes over materialist examinations of AES states vs idealist examinations. Another good reference is Blackshirts and Reds. AES is by no means perfect, but it does and did work.