Sex work is work.
The people that do it deserve respect, and all the social and legal protections that attach to any other kind of work.
Your own preferred attitude to sex isn't the point.
But should it be work?
Should we really have a society where selling your body is an opportunity to make money.
For instance, it imply that some poor women are gonna take it regardless the consequence, just because it's the best alternative to pay the bills.
I can barely tolerate the physical straining we put on some workers. Sex work's consequences are unacceptable to me in that same sens, sometimes worse.
So sure, no matter your opinion we should respect them, and not incriminate them!
And of course not all sex work is the same... to be acceptable it just requires better conditions. It can't be something you choose out of need.
selling your body
i hate that phrasing to describe sex work. no one is "selling their body", as they are still in control of it. sex workers provide a service, same as a masseuse or hair stylist (except their service involves genitals) and it should be treated as such.
Otherwise one could argue that all (physical) labour is "selling your body"
It seems to me like joining the military is arguably more deserving of the phrase "selling your body"; you're basically signing up to get injured or killed.
For instance, it imply that some poor women are gonna take it regardless the consequence, just because it’s the best alternative to pay the bills.
How is this principally different from a poor person taking any shitty job to pay the bills? Like garbage collector or similarly unpleasant/disrespected jobs. The system always forces poor people to settle for shitty jobs. Sex work is not the issue there, the system is.
I don't approve of work.
based
Sex work is going to happen whether it's legal or not. Might as well regulate it and provide sex workers with a legal framework, healthcare, retirement funds, etc.
I'm of the opinion that if you don't want people performing sex work, you should be enacting measures to improve people's quality of life to where that's not their only option. The workers themselves should have legal protections and be permitted to perform their job like any other worker is.
I suspect some people would prefer that as a regulated option anyway, and they should be defended in their choice to do so. Sex work is work.
Moreover, if you don't want people doing sex work, then you probably especially don't want people to be forced into doing sex work. But that's precisely what happens when you criminalize it: you make it so that the only way the demand can be satisfied is through a shady black market where trafficking is orders of magnitude more likely to take place, and you make it orders of magnitude more difficult for victims and witnesses to go to the authorities to report it.
I generally agree with you, but it is so complicated. I read a piece in The Nation a few years ago (written 2019) and whenever I see a question like this I have to dig it up. Sex workers in Spain applied to become a union (OTRAS, for short, full name basically means “the other women") and were approved in August 2018. Here are a few snippets:
After OTRAS was legalized, its two dozen or so members—who include women and men, both trans and cisgender—quickly found themselves engulfed in a national controversy. Prominent activists, academics, and media personalities swarmed social media under the hashtag #SoyAbolicionista (“I’m an Abolitionist”) to denounce what they saw as basic exploitation masquerading as the service economy. The union’s opponents argue that in a patriarchal society, women can’t be consenting parties in a paid sexual act born of financial necessity. They liken sex work to slavery, hence their name: “abolitionists.”
OTRAS calls this abolitionist opposition “the industry.” “They live really well off of their discussions, books, workshops, conferences, without ever including sex workers,” Necro says. “We’re not allowed to attend the feminist conventions.” OTRAS accuses “the industry” and the government—the two loudest arms of the abolitionist camp—of racism and classism, and is irked by their claims to feminism. “A government that refuses to guarantee the rights of the most vulnerable, poorest women with the highest number of immigrants? How is that feminist?” Borrell bristles. “We’re the feminists, the ones fighting for their rights.”
While advocates for legalization argue that it will make sex work safer, abolitionists counter that it could instead endanger women who, unlike the members of OTRAS, did not choose to enter the profession on their own. Abolitionists frame their anti-prostitution stance around the issue of human trafficking, specifically for prostitution. They argue that regulating sex work will simply allow traffickers to exploit women under legal cover.
“The trafficked women have no papers, so if police raid a club, the women have no choice but to say they’re there because they want to be,” says Rocío Nieto [...] Once law enforcement is out of earshot, Nieto says, “none of the women tell you they want to be there. None of them tell you they want to do that work.”
A handful of smaller radical-left parties also back OTRAS, as well as one unlikely ally: the right-wing Ciudadanos party, known for its harsh anti-immigration stance, among other more traditionally conservative postures. “Experience shows us that when the State refuses to regulate, the mafias make the rules,” the party’s press corps wrote me in an e-mail.
I'll just respond to your take:
The idea to earn for a living doesn't seem nice.
For you it doesn't. For others, mind your own business.
sex should be for 2 people (or more for others who prefer polyamory) who wants to be intimate/romantic with each other.
For you it should. For others, mind your own business.
money should not be the purpose.
For you it shouldn't. For others, mind your own business.
If you have any desire at all to weigh in or or take a position on the consensual sex lives of other adults, you're just revealing how little you respect the freedom and autonomy of other people. You're just revealing your desire to control others.
Sex work is work, and work (tying your capacity for labor to your continued survival) is bad. Sex workers should be supported like any member of the proletariat
Sex labor on the other hand? Sure as long as you have removed the exploitive element that comes with work.
Can you elaborate on the work vs labor dichotomy?
I’m not familiar with the concept, especially because in my language the two would be almost exact synonyms in this context (unless you are Hercules or what not). And Latin languages just get the one.
Sure, I don't see why they should be treated any different than anyone else. I think the problem is the stigma around sex in general, and for that I blame religion.
My take is this.
I will guarantee universal basic job & income for everyone.
Once that's guarantee I'll see if anyone is willingly becoming a sex worker.
Without performing that "experiment" I cannot really respond.
Friend of mine used to be a whore. She says it has been the most fulfilling and fun job she has ever had. She got to meet many interesting people. And she also has a lot of funny stories to tell.
It was also fun for her that she could get tax breaks for underwear and other sexy clothes.
Yes, but ideally there should be regulation to prevent pimping, predation, trafficking, and STI spread. At the very least, decriminalization protects sex workers from fear of prosecution preventing them from seeking healthcare, legal help, etc.
Trafficking is heinous, but it also gets irreverantly thrown around as a whataboutism by people who are against it for personal instead of rational reasons.
The root of the problems with sex work, as always, is tying means of survival to productivity, which I am against both personally and rationally :P
I don't believe that my approval or anyone else's is at all relevant.
My position is that there's only one person who has the right to decide whether or not it's acceptable to trade sex for money, and that's the person entering into the trade. Assuming that all other contractual requirements are met - they're of legal age and acting of their own free will and so on - it's just as much their right to trade sex for money as to trade ditch digging or code writing or coffee brewing or meeting taking for money.
(edited for clarity)
I think a great example is OnlyFans. Pornography is close to full sex work, so it's a fair comparison. Here was a field that was dominated by predatory companies and people in the worst places. Actors and Actresses frequently talked about how they were abused, pushed beyond what they thought was acceptable, underpaid, hurt, raped, and honestly still worse.
Enter OnlyFans, a more legitimate way for workers to create their own content, their own pricing, set their own rules and their own boundaries. By legitimizing pornography and pornographic actors it made the entire thing safer for the workers themselves.
It's natural that sex work would follow this. It's wildly known that sex work is not a safe business, and it's extremely predatory. Taking our opinions out of it completely, if the options are A) let the extremely terrible and predatory underground business continue as it has or B) legitimize the business, add protections, and allow them to set their own rules - well then, isn't the moral option obvious?
I think it should be legal and regulated. It's a service that people want and others are willing to fill. We just need laws to protect all parties, particularly the workers.
"Selling is legal. Fucking is legal. Why isn't selling fucking legal?" -George Carlin
I'll kinda take a different approach since everyone's covered the basics with sex work. The problem with how you've presented it, is you're defining an act on how you perceive and want to regulate it. The simple question becomes, "should people have bodily autonomy?"
Everyone has a different opinion on what can be considered intimate/romantic. Some people feel a full body massage is too intimate, others a dinner with a co-worker is too romantic (not agreeing, just throwing out examples). If we start regulating based on how someone feels something should be perceived than it's a slippery slope. I can fully understand that you believe sex to be romantic while also realizing that others don't feel the same way or view it as a positive aspect of it. If it's not being forced on you then it shouldn't be a problem what consenting adults do in privacy.
Its been said in this thread better than I can - but I wish the people who argue sex work is immoral because you're "selling your body" would apply that same logic to labor.
For most of us, our body is the only capital we have and we're taught to devalue that capital into oblivion so those who deplete that capital the most make the smallest possible piece of the pie.
Do you watch porn? Porn is monetized sex with the purpose of getting money, and with a high degree of abuse and exploitation might I add. You and I and any law don't get to define the purpose of anything, we only decide wether something is allowed or not. If you want to sell your body for money you should have the freedom to do so, protected by labor laws and health assistance. This is a very good way to reduce the spreading of diseases and reduce the power of exploitative criminals
People break their bodies doing other kinds of work and people don't seem too upset about that.
Some sex work isn't even very physically involved. Take some pictures in the shower. Video yourself rubbing one out. It's not all walking a dark, rainy, street in your underwear.
All workers should be unionized. Or maybe be in a worked owned cooperative. Capitalism will ruin everything eventually.
Everyone should have access to health care and basic needs.
Laws should be written with input what those they would bind and those they affect. Do sex workers want certain requirements? What do medical professionals think is safest? Laws should not be written to appease the nervous stomach of uninvolved parties.
But this is all fired from the hip because I haven't done any real research. My gut feel is that most arguments against it are inconsistent (eg: "it's degrading! But nevermind the job where they literally clean shit off the floor") or personal nonsense (eg: "it's a sin! But I don't care that your worldview doesn't say so")
IMO, sex should be for 2 people (or more for others who prefer polyamory) who wants to be intimate/romantic with each other. My point is money should not be the purpose.
This is your personal opinion and really doesn't justify laws backing it. It's not founded on anything. Also I've got bad news about how a lot of sex isn't intimate nor romantic.
I approve of sex work, but I don't approve of the abusive madams and pimps of the world. Usually, they are the problem. Protection should come in a different way.
I personally don't see anything wrong with it, unless it's forced, which is unfortunately common here.
I believe a victimless crime shouldn't be, and that unless a very strong case is made otherwise for a specific person, people can decide what they want for themselves.
Of course people being forced into sex work is bad, but then so is people being forced into working kitchens or call centers. If they decide on it voluntarily that's all good and well.
Also, since I can't resist:
~~approve of sex work~~ approve sex work
Yes, it's my job to personally rubber stamp every truck stop girl. /s
Sex isn't special in the sense of being on a pedestal. Sure, it can be magical in that two people in love come closer together, but that is also true of many intimate experiences. The physical act should not be restricted from being performed, shared, or even monetized because of the sense of morality of others.
Sex workers are working. They may get someone off via their actions, but they're providing a service, same as someone who fixes your broken phone, provides medical care, or unclogs your toilet. It's a form of labor.
My life doesn't include a special realm or being beyond that of people to provide incentives or guidance on how to live. That's entirely decided by people and their own sense of decency. Treat others well, as you'd wish to be treated, and try not to live in a way that negatively affects others. That's the whole of morality to me. I think this will lead to a good life. In no way would paying for or receiving money for sexual acts be affected by it.
Hell, give me enough money and I'll perform whatever sex acts you want.
Absolutely because then we can start talking about protecting and helping the sex workers that need help, and give them a chance to work in a safe environment.
Sex worker have been a thing since at least when we invented writings and still going strong today.
Might be time to give sex workers the dignity and respect they deserve.
If you believe that laws forbidding gambling, sale of liquor, sale of contraceptives, requiring definite closing hours, enforcing the Sabbath, or any such, are necessary to the welfare of your community, that is your right and I do not ask you to surrender your beliefs or give up your efforts to put over such laws. But remember that such laws are, at most, a preliminary step in doing away with the evils they indict. Moral evils can never be solved by anything as easy as passing laws alone. If you aid in passing such laws without bothering to follow through by digging in to the involved questions of sociology, economics, and psychology which underlie the causes of the evils you are gunning for, you will not only fail to correct the evils you sought to prohibit but will create a dozen new evils as well.
—Robert A. Heinlein, Take Back Your Government
hey look reactionary content from .world! Shocked
Sex work is work.
No, I don't approve of any work. All work should be abolished, including sex work.
There are other ways in which we sell our bodies in exchange for resources. A lot of people point to soldiers, but for those of us in knowledge work, we sell our brains in exchange for stress and depression if things aren't in balance. Think about construction workers who break their wrists drilling down floorboards, or caregivers that expose their immune systems to a high quantity of kids who are likely to spread any bugs they pick up because they don't know better.
Sex work just involves people selling entertainment or enjoyment in a more intimate setting. The fact that it is intimate doesn't change that it's work, and that resources can be exchanged for service.
I think this all comes down to stereotypes specific to a certain culture. Hoping I see my culture in America make it more legal so we don't have some of the issues that come from this market not being legal
Absolutely, as long as there is safety and security for all parties involved. Consent must be obeyed by clients and both the clients and employees should be required to supply current STD screens as well as having a safe location for the work.
Do I approve of sex work?
So, yes, sorta, mostly, but I don't think it's straight forward.
For one, sex work is a very broad category that ranges from selling feet pics to having sex to which you wouldn't otherwise consent with strangers. So under that large umbrella of "jobs wherein you assist someone with getting their rocks off in exchange for money" there's a lot of variation and differing considerations for the impacts on the workers and the clients.
So I guess I approve of sex work in the general sense that I approve of any service industry labor that doesn't intrinsically harm the worker or the consumer. But on the other hand, sex work, particularly having sex, and even stuff short of having sex, bares some higher risk than your average behind-the-counter job. There's risks of violence, disease, and emotional or psychological harm, some of which is higher because of illegality or stigma, but some of which is higher simply because of the intrinsically intimate nature of sex. And sure, there is something kinda squicky about commodifying human intimacy.
But on the other hand, the demand is there (not like I don't consume porn), so the supply will always follow to meet it. So best you can do is ensure that whatever labor sex workers do is as safe as possible, and that the people who do the labor do so freely (to the degree possible in a society that's still capitalist).
Approve of? I guess. The problem isn't the sex work, it's the way sex workers are treated.
I think making and keeping it illegal, and thus unregulated, is the dumbest damn idea possible for the subject. Totally boneheaded.
Is it something that I would consider a good career even if it was legal? Nope. People suck. And people tend to suck the most with hormones going crazy in their bodies, and sex is one of those things that makes all kinds of chemicals flow. So, seems like a difficult, demanding job under the best of circumstances.
Would I hire a sex worker for myself? Ignoring that I'm happily monogamous, it's unlikely I would for sex. I can see myself hiring a temporary cuddle buddy if I was single, and might do so if I end up a widower some day.
Depending on which jobs you count as sex work, I've known anywhere from a few to dozens of women in the field. Strippers, escorts, phone sex workers, and happy ending masseuses. Nothing but respect for them. Even dated a couple of strippers back in the day. One I was with for long enough to have discussed marriage some day
Work is Work an it should be safe for everyone. Can you imagine the good they could do if that field expanded to Sex Therapy/Counseling. Where they could really help people with sexual disfunction and self esteem.
At this point I'm thinking we should legalize prostitution and criminalize dating.
Dating these days is what prostitution would be if it was published by EA. They added gambling mechanics and season passes.
In today's world, we all get fucked one way or another.
I approve. I think it should be legalized. I'm not sold on the libertarian view of complete decriminalization though. Capitalism is innately exploitative, and If it's not regulated to maintain workers' safety, and rights, then I'd expect working conditions to be just as bad if not worse for the laborers, which I think is a big reason why so many people want to keep it outlawed in the first place.
I think it should be legal, with extra protections for the workers to protect them from exploitation and abuse. Unfortunately though, our entire economic system is exploitative, so I’m not sure if it would ever entirely be by choice that somebody turned to prostitution, though labor itself is never entirely by choice. I only work at my job because I have to, not because I really want to. A worker selling their body to perform legal labor for money is on par with a person selling their body for another’s sexual gratification. Making it illegal just makes it worse for the workers, since they’re obviously going to do it anyways and won’t get any protections from the law.
Sex doesn’t always have to be for love, equating it with love is something religious people have forced on the world to get over their own religion-induced guilt over the whole thing. Bonobos have a crazy amount of sex and use it for all sorts of social interactions, it’s something animals do to feel good and relieve stress. There’s instances of other primates even engaging in prostitution as well, where they trade sex for food, and prostitution is one of, if not the oldest job among humans.
If one person demands sex in return for not harming another, it is called rape and we rightly consider it to be a crime. If one person demands sex in return for not starving the other, many people seem to find it acceptable. I would never dare judge someone for the work they are forced to do by their circumstances, but 'sex work' (or whatever you choose to call it) is absolutely not okay. Those trapped in it deserve better.
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