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submitted 1 day ago by yogthos@lemmygrad.ml to c/news@hexbear.net

Arnaud Bertrand:

I strongly suspect it's a message to the upcoming Trump administration.

Let me explain what seems to be going on.

On the face of it, it's not a major story: China issued $2 billion in USD-denominated sovereign bonds in Saudi Arabia, which means that investors lent USD to the Chinese government that they promised to pay back. That's what a bond is. So far, relatively boring.

The first somewhat interesting aspect of it is that the bonds were oversubscribed by almost 20x (meaning $40+ billion in demand for $2 billion worth of bonds), which is far more demand than usual for USD sovereign bonds. Typically US Treasury auctions see oversubscription rate between 2x to 3x so there obviously seems to be very strong market appeal for China's dollar-denominated debt.

The second interesting aspect is that the interest rate on the bonds was remarkably close to US Treasury rates (just 1-3 basis points higher, i.e. 0.01-0.03%), which means that China is now able to borrow money - in US dollars (!) - at virtually the same rate as the US government itself. That's the case for no other country in the world. As a benchmark, countries with the highest credit ratings (AAA) typically pay at least 10-20 basis points over US Treasuries in the rare instances when they issue USD bonds.

The third interesting aspect is the venue itself for this bond sale: Saudi Arabia. This is unusual since sovereign bonds are typically issued in major financial centers, not in Riyadh. The choice of Saudi Arabia and the fact that the Saudis agreed to this is particularly significant given its historical role in the global dollar system, the so-called 'petrodollar' system which I don't need to explain... By issuing dollar bonds in Saudi Arabia that compete directly with US Treasuries, and getting essentially the same interest rate, China is demonstrating it can operate as an alternative manager of dollar liquidity right in the heart of the petrodollar system. For Saudi Arabia, which holds hundreds of billions in dollar reserves, this creates a new option for investing their dollars: they can invest it with the Chinese government instead of the US government.

Ok, that's all interesting but still not the main reason why Chinese social media is abuzz. The reason why is because they postulate that this is trial round by China to demonstrate to the US that they can effectively use their own currency against them, with potentially dramatic consequences.

How?

First of all, think it through, imagine if China scales this up and instead of issuing $2 billion worth of bonds, they start issuing 10s or 100s of billions worth of it.

What this means for the US is that China would effectively be competing with the US Treasury in the global dollar market. Instead of countries like Saudi Arabia automatically recycling their dollars into US Treasury bonds, they could put them into Chinese dollar bonds that pay the same rate.

This would create a parallel dollar system where China, not the US, controls part of the flow of dollars. The US would still print the dollars, but China would increasingly manage where they go. Imagine that...

Another critical aspect is that every dollar that goes into Chinese bonds instead of US Treasuries is one less dollar helping to finance US government spending. At a time when the US is running massive deficits and needs to constantly sell Treasury bonds to fund itself, having China emerge as a competing dollar bond issuer that can match Treasury rates could pose immense financing problems for the US government. It could effectively end the US's so-called “exorbitant privilege”.

But wait, you might ask yourself, what's the point of China having so many dollars? Don't they transfer the problem to themselves: they too need to find a place to invest all these dollars, don't they?

You'd be right, the last thing China needs is more US dollars: in 2023 it ran a US dollar trade surplus of $823.2 billion, and for 2024, it's expected to be $940 billion. China is already absolutely awash with dollars.

But that's where the beauty of the Belt & Road Initiative comes in. Out of the 193 countries in the world, 152 of these countries are part of the BRI. And a very common characteristic many of these countries have is: they owe debt in USD, to the US government or other Western lenders.

This is where China's strategy could become truly clever. China could use its US dollars to help Belt & Road countries pay off their dollar debts to Western lenders. But here's the key: in exchange for helping these countries clear their dollar debts, China could arrange to be repaid in yuan, or in strategic resources, or through other bilateral arrangements.

This would create a triple win for China: they get rid of their excess dollars, they help their partner countries escape dollar dependency, and they deepen these countries' economic integration with China instead of the US.

For BRI countries, this is attractive because they can escape the trap of dollar-denominated debt (and the threat of US financial sanctions) and get likely better conditions with China, which will help their development.

In effect this would China placing itself as an intermediary at the heart of the dollar system, where the dollars still eventually make their way back to the US - just through a path that builds Chinese rather than American influence and progressively undermines the US's ability to finance itself (with all the consequences this has on inflation, etc.).

At this stage you probably tell yourself "come on, there's no way China can do that, the US government surely has tools at its disposal to prevent this stuff". And the answer, surprisingly, is that there is actually little the U.S. can do that doesn't undermine them in some shape or form.

The most obvious response would be to threaten sanctions against countries - like Saudi Arabia - or institutions that buy Chinese dollar bonds. But this would further demonstrate that dollar assets aren't actually safe from US political interference, further encouraging countries to diversify, compounding the problem. The dollar's strength partly comes from network effects - everyone uses it because everyone else uses it - but as we've seen with Russia sanctions create a coordinating moment for countries to move away together, weakening these network effects.

Another option would be for the Federal Reserve to raise interest rates to make US Treasuries more attractive. But this would be self-defeating: it would increase the US government's own borrowing costs at a time when they're already struggling with massive deficits, potentially triggering a recession. And China, getting similar rates as the US, could simply match any rate increase.

The US could also go for the "nuclear option" of restricting China's ability to clear dollar transactions but this would effectively immediately fragment the global financial system, undermining the dollar's role as the global reserve currency - exactly what the US wants to avoid. And with China being the most important trading partner of the immense majority of the world's countries, nothing is less sure that the U.S. would win at this game...

In short this seems to be like some sort of Tai Chi 'four ounces moving a thousand pounds' (四兩撥千斤) move by China, using minimal force to redirect the dollar's strength in a way that benefits China.

Like I wrote at the beginning however, at this stage this is most likely just a message by China to the upcoming Trump administration: "we can do this so maybe think very carefully about all the nasty things you have in mind for us..." The beauty of this move is how strategically elegant it is: it costs China almost nothing to demonstrate, but forces Washington to contemplate some very uncomfortable possibilities.

https://x.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1859446480198828360

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[-] 7bicycles@hexbear.net 47 points 1 day ago

A) hilarious to middlemen yourself into the US-Dollar-Hegemony because the capitalists are too greedy

B) what do you mean this is generating buzz in china, are you telling me the average chinese person understands this? I could show this to like a hundred people off of the streets here and their eyes would glaze over

[-] yogthos@lemmygrad.ml 43 points 1 day ago

I'm guessing he means that it's generating buzz amongst the people who care about this stuff. :)

[-] Tabitha@hexbear.net 15 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

I could show this to like a hundred people off of the streets here and their eyes would glaze over

yeah but depending on how you soundbite it, you can get both dems and repubs to react to *something-something-tariffs* with so-true

[-] TheDrink@hexbear.net 29 points 1 day ago

Why is China able to issue USD bonds at competitive rates to the US Treasury? Is it just because they have so many USDs lying around?

[-] yogthos@lemmygrad.ml 30 points 1 day ago

Yup, that's precisely the reason. They have a big reserve of US bonds and now they're putting them to use.

[-] Karma_404@hexbear.net 47 points 1 day ago

Wonder if this is China's future strategy or just showing their cards to US considering the stern talking Xi gave Biden some days ago. A warning to US to not rock the boat too hard. Telling US to die as peacefully as possible lol.

[-] yogthos@lemmygrad.ml 43 points 1 day ago

It seems to be what China's doing, unfortunately I suspect this might be too subtle of a gesture for the imbeciles running the US to actually understand.

[-] JoeByeThen@hexbear.net 16 points 1 day ago

I doubt it, unfortunately. The US is basically a rabid dog, at this point, with wealthy leash-holders kicking it towards wherever they feel its destruction will be most profitable. Even if it would be more profitable for them to put the dog down and get on board with BRI... I'm sure there's enough white supremacist assholes at that level of power who, not only would be insulted to do so, but can't imagine they're being outplayed by the ChINEsE! frothingfash

[-] yogthos@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 1 day ago
[-] Riffraffintheroom@hexbear.net 7 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

I thought this as well. This question feels a little lib-brained, but does Trump have any person or faction in his orbit who has the intelligence to understand and the power to act on this knowledge independently? And if not, is there a faction who has the clout and ability to relay this information to Trump in a way that he understands and favours over the advice of the more suicidally racist contingent of his administration?

[-] HamManBad@hexbear.net 9 points 1 day ago

I would say yes, if the people in Trump's orbit understand anything, it's money, bonds, interest rates, and leverage.

[-] ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net 38 points 1 day ago

My eyes glaze over at financial stuff but I forced myself to read this because it seemed important, and I'm glad I did

[-] TheDoctor@hexbear.net 36 points 1 day ago

But that's where the beauty of the Belt & Road Initiative comes in.

The way I gasped. This is brilliant.

[-] yogthos@lemmygrad.ml 35 points 1 day ago

Yeah, this is a very clever way to use the dollar in a way that US will have a hard time countering.

But that's where the beauty of the Belt & Road Initiative comes in. Out of the 193 countries in the world, 152 of these countries are part of the BRI. And a very common characteristic many of these countries have is: they owe debt in USD, to the US government or other Western lenders.

This is where China's strategy could become truly clever. China could use its US dollars to help Belt & Road countries pay off their dollar debts to Western lenders. But here's the key: in exchange for helping these countries clear their dollar debts, China could arrange to be repaid in yuan, or in strategic resources, or through other bilateral arrangements.

This would create a triple win for China: they get rid of their excess dollars, they help their partner countries escape dollar dependency, and they deepen these countries' economic integration with China instead of the US.

TL;DR China is the Sun God Nika and the US is the Gorosei. luffy-pog

Also bullish for bitcoin.

[-] SacredExcrement@hexbear.net 27 points 1 day ago
[-] Dirt_Possum@hexbear.net 19 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

@xiaohongshu@hexbear.net Thoughts?

Edit: I see that a good portion of what this article says are things that you have discussed (and let all the air out of) here: https://hexbear.net/post/3920843/5657051
But it also seems like there are a number of things that this Bertrand article is saying that counters some of what you were saying in that thread. The cycle that this Bertrand article is talking about seems fairly air-tight which is why I was wondering what you would have to say about it in addition to what you were saying in that other thread.

At the risk of annoying everyone with users tags, I'm also curious what @BynarsAreOk@hexbear.net, @geikei@hexbear.net, and @AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net, @meth_dragon@hexbear.net, @Fishroot@hexbear.net, @griefstricken@lemmy.ml think. Sorry if you don't want to be tagged like this, let me know and I'll edit this comment and make sure not to do it again.

[-] Fishroot@hexbear.net 1 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago)

I'm in the same position as XHS regarding this situation. It sounds really convoluted as an explanation that sometime can be explained in more simple way, this is basically a sign that Saudi Arabia is not going to dedollarize and China is not willing to abandon export oriented economy. I think this is also expected from the "leader" of an non-ideological organization that is basically a complain bloc that put a fancy trade show time to time called BRICS

It also confirms that in the short\middle term China and the US is relatively ok with their current relationship all the saber rattling is just a way to force the other side to renegotiate their free trade conditions.

[-] D61@hexbear.net 10 points 1 day ago
[-] miz@hexbear.net 28 points 1 day ago

death to america

[-] CleverOleg@hexbear.net 16 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

I am not convinced that this will be good for the global south countries that take on this debt, since they are still exposed to significant USD risk. If this was being loaned out to Germany, South Korea, et al then I wouldn’t be as bothered. But if say Kenya takes out a $1 billion loan to build a new port… it’s great that they have a new port. But they will need USD to pay back the loan. All it takes is a swing in the FX rates to get screwed over.

Edit: to clarify, I am not saying at all that this is Chinese imperialism or any other lib shit like that. Just that there are risks involved any time a global south country takes on debt in USD.

[-] AmericaDelendaEst@hexbear.net 27 points 1 day ago

Isn't the idea that they get loaned USD that they can then pay back in yuan

[-] CleverOleg@hexbear.net 21 points 1 day ago

Yes I missed that part, my bad.

[-] AnarchoAnarchist@hexbear.net 13 points 1 day ago

Good on you for accepting criticism, and noting your mistake. o7

[-] yogthos@lemmygrad.ml 21 points 1 day ago

I think if the goal is just paying off western loans from orgs like the IMF then there's no increased risk. Basically, this scheme allows countries to conver their dollarized debt into something actually useful.

[-] CleverOleg@hexbear.net 13 points 1 day ago

I don’t disagree, it’s not worse than the status quo for them.

[-] TraschcanOfIdeology@hexbear.net 15 points 1 day ago

I didn't understand that at all. Global south countries are already indebted in USD, to the US or to western lenders, and struggle to get the money to finance infrastructure projects and other programs because of that debt.

That's where China comes in with huge USD reserves, lends those countries the USD they need to build infrastructure, and offer the know-how through Chinese companies on how to build it. Then the terms of repayment don't have to be "pay us in USD", like it would be with any other lender, but it can be in yuan or other kinds of agreements, like payment in natural resources at a fixed rate.

I have my reserves on what the shape of these repayment plans might be, and what that means for the marginalized peoples of global South countries that enter the B&RI, but it is a move away from western hegemony, that's for sure.

[-] CleverOleg@hexbear.net 12 points 1 day ago

I missed the part that repayment can be in yuan.

No problem. I thought i was misunderstanding something, myself.

[-] Hexboare@hexbear.net 7 points 1 day ago

At a time when the US is running massive deficits and needs to constantly sell Treasury bonds to fund itself

Where will they find all the gold needed to back the value of the US dollar?

Perhaps the US will end convertibility and move to some sort of free floating currency system, and will be able to freely create and destroy US dollars

[-] Dirt_Possum@hexbear.net 10 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Where will they find all the gold needed to back the value of the US dollar?

They don't need to. The US certainly doesn't back it with gold anymore. Its value is in the fact that it's what everyone uses and is largely forced to use because everyone else does. What the article called network effects.

Perhaps the US will end convertibility and move to some sort of free floating currency system, and will be able to freely create and destroy US dollars

The US already freely creates and destroys US dollars. And if they end all convertibility, that would completely undermine that network effect. The article addresses the same basic idea in the third to last OP paragraph starting with:

The US could also go for the "nuclear option" of restricting China's ability to clear dollar transactions but this would effectively immediately fragment the global financial system, undermining the dollar's role as the global reserve currency - exactly what the US wants to avoid.

Edit: unless your comment was a bit and I just ate your onion.

[-] Hexboare@hexbear.net 6 points 1 day ago

I'm very sorry, I should have ended that with an /s

[-] Dirt_Possum@hexbear.net 8 points 23 hours ago

No, I should have known better. Spending too much time gawking at the .world libs has damaged my irony/sarcasm detector.

this post was submitted on 21 Nov 2024
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