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are you sure?
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this post was submitted on 21 Jan 2024
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Are we? I hate how everyone who struggles with relationships is instantly called an incel.
I wish there was a better way to distinguish between small-i incel (a life condition you'd like to change) and big-I Incel (a toxic social movement).
There's r/foreveralone. I don't know how the community evolved, but like 7 or so years ago it was basically what you described. People seeking comfort over feeling undateable and being scared of never finding anyone, but without the toxicity and hate that incels are known for.
Don't ask me how I know this.
Incel ideology is defined by the "involuntary" (the "In" in "Incel"). So by definition, saying that something can be changed, implies it is not involuntary. And not a part of the ideology.
And because choosing to follow the ideology is a choice, there can be no such thing as a "small 'i'" incel.
Except it’s not exactly involuntary for them, is it? People who subscribe to that ideology are undateable because they become awful, toxic people, which can be changed.
Well, this meme is specifically promoting the notion that how attractive you look directly correlates to your ability to date people. When how you look is not the be all end all of dating.
This general concept of one's "biologically ordained appearance" being incompatible with finding love and relationships is closely tied with incel ideology. The "black pill" is generally used to denote that you're biologically and immutably so unattractive that you will never be able to "compete in the sexual marketplace." Felt gross just typing that. It's also attached to the conspiracy theory of "hypergamy," that you're so unattractive that even women of "comparable conventional attractiveness" won't ever date you.
The message of the meme, that someone is so unattractive they can not date anyone at all, is not explicitly incel ideology, but that notion is closely tied to it. In all likelihood this meme was made by someone in the incel community or who regularly consumes incel content.
There are behavioral studies showing this to be completely true. As someone who is honest about how I probably wouldn't date an unattractive person, I freely admit this tracks; and, unlike incels, I absolutely don't blame either gender for this fact. It's just how our brains are wired.
Everyone’s idea of physical attraction will be different. There’s also people who don’t strongly have opinions about physical attraction as they do about personality attraction. And then you have intellectual attraction.
There are people out there single and happy regardless of their attractiveness and not even bothered with it. They aren’t even lonely. There are people where it’s not even their lifestyle. There are plenty of people who may not appear physically attractive to one person but are in happy relationships. So physical attraction is a red herring argument when it comes to describing what makes a person turn into an incel.
It’s about how an incel handles rejection and being alone. There’s much more to do with obsessiveness, loneliness, entitlement, anger transference and toxic thinking than it does with attraction in and of itself. The toxicity becomes more a self fulfilling prophecy.
Sure, people that can completely ignore physical appearance exist; it’s a bit of a straw man to say any claim is about 100.00% of people. The point is that appearance matters to a majority of people - and that it’s often the first attractor that even leads to any further discovery. Romantic comedies tend to put “opposites” into quirky unexpected circumstances that lead to that discovery, but that won’t happen for a lot of people.
But as to your second and third paragraphs, you are completely correct - and it may have been a missed expectation thinking I was arguing against that. People should be happy on their own. It might just be me thinking that the meme is originally pointed towards people expressing that relationships are something everyone should seek, because it has nothing to do with attractiveness - and that is what I consider untrue. But yes, people can still choose to be “ugly” (by mild comparison) and happy. Nothing totally excuses toxic behavior from people’s rejection.
ohh is there also a study defining exactly how ugly YOU are? or maybe you have some mental health issues and this is just more self deprecating talk?
that's the issue here, mother fuckers keep saying "study study study fact fact fact ugly ugly ugly" but that speaks nothing to their own situation. you can abuse facts and research, and I see it literally every day: depressed people cherry pick negative evidence to support their worldview that they are worthless
There are two good arguments here.
Biologically attractive people will be generally more successful at having casual sexual encounters. Whether or not this tracks to actually finding love or just finding sex is unsure. Furthermore, whether it has to do with "unattractive" people being less confident/more self-conscious is yet to be shown.
If you take care of yourself and actually go out and interact with women (and people in general), forcing yourself into uncomfortable social situations, eventually you'll get better at talking to people and talking to people is like 80% of dating.
These people need help. It's not my problem or responsibility. It's THEIR responsibility.
Like many, I have not seen any success, or really attention (to share my social skills) in dating apps. That step is wholly decided by physical attractiveness.
I’d be happy to throw away any attempt at using those sites, but unfortunately much of the dating world has moved to them; and the people in relationships I do know generally used them.
What we know of those sites suggests the only men receiving attention on them are in the top 10% in terms of appearance. I’ve also anecdotally heard from women who admit to using the environment more for attention seeking behavior than actual relationships. I certainly wouldn’t call myself “ugly” for being in the bottom 90 percentile. I am okay with my appearance - I just know I’m not a perfect Adonis. I’m even okay with that behavior from the opposite gender - you can’t help what you like. Even if one of my friends was a granite-chinned gigachad, I wouldn’t fault him for just refusing to work through such a toxic environment - even if he has trouble finding such relationships elsewhere.
This is a complex situation not faulted to any one gender. The net effect, though, is that it’s not a good idea for anyone to date unless you’re blinded towards the survivorship bias you see from those that make it through, or are unconventionally attractive.
Online dating is not really the best snapshot of stability when it comes to people and relationships, or people who should be in relationships.
You run a high chance that there are scammers. That will immediately taint your findings.
Hmmm, to me it read differenlty: that someone who is attractive doesn't understand the problems that come with being unattractive, and also it was funny how naively the guy in the bottom row asks "are you sure?".
I guess, like everything else in life, there's more than one way to read/interpret something.
How is that incel ideology? Incels hate women and think they are entitled to sexual relationships. This has nothing to do with believing dating potential directly correlates to physical attractiveness (which it does, at least for men).
If you wanna go ahead and read the rest of my comment I explain it lol
This is absolutely an incel meme. Incel ideology hinges on always placing the blame on something external (often women and genetics) for their problems, never their own actions. If someone were to blame themselves and take responsibility for their own situation, it would by definition not be Involuntary.
How so? Incels blame women for their failures. I blame myself.
I wasn't calling you an Incel.
I posted it to promote one thing and one thing only: giggles from the shitposting meme community.
I'm F30 (if that matters at all), I have a boyfriend, we live together in a stable and happy relationship, we're both social, have lots of friends and boardgames and beer, and occasionally take each other out on dates at nice restaurants. Neither of us is "unattractive" (whatever that means in this context, quite subjective I'd say), and we both laughed our ass off at this meme, it was funny, and gave my brain the giggles. Not everything like this is pushing incel ideology, and neither does anything else on my profile (feel free to check, I guess?).
PS: It's nice to see people giving each other advice for dating here... One funny thing about the meme is that that person in the bottom row might simply "view" themselves that way, or exaggerate the contrast between him and the guy in the upper row. All in all, some people got the laughs, others got nice advice, there was no intention to promote any kind of ideology, so I'd say it's been a good post.
YOU ARE SO CLOSE TO GETTING IT
no one on earth looks like the dude in the image but I see people everyday who genuinely believe that's what they look like and their life is doomed
you can see how someone who is exposed to that mentality regularly would be alarmed to see it appearing on here right?
So... Next time you want me to post it with a trigger warning? I didn't really feel like it needed one, being a meme and all.
And please stop taking to me like this, this patronizing tone is not called for.
I want you to post memes that aren't shitty, that's all. and I wanted there to be at least one comment calling this out for being shitty.
we can agree to disagree on this one. I can appreciate that you laugh at the funny face, but the message genuinely disgusts me.
I apologize for my tone. be well snek
In any case, thanks for pointing it out. Obviously people should be aware that it's a meme that has incel undertones and is likely made by an incel (I found it online and reposted it here... not really anywhere in specific, I think I was duckduckgo'ing something else and this popped up in the results, so not from 4chan or anything like that).
I respect that. I understand that, if seen from the incel lens, this meme looks bad.
Sorry, sadly that's not something that I'll stop doing on Lemmy Shitpost. I recommend you check out Ten Forward, where I post better memes... if you like Star Trek.
You too, TimewornTraveller, may you travel somewhere less cruel than our current era for some time and rest that weariness 😊
I'm not trying to diminish your experience, but it's called "dogwhistling" for a reason. You, being in a secure happy relationship, are unlikely to hear it. But a deeply insecure young man looking to externalize his shame absolutely will. He is the target, not you.
I know you didn't mean harm, and FWIW, this is not my opinion, it's a central tenant to Incel ideology. Here is the exact same "joke" on the Incels wiki.
Right, thanks for pointing out that it would be dogwhistling if I had done it intentionally. I'm not taking it down though, seems like there is sufficient discussion in the comment section about this, plus people seem to think it's more funny than it's offensive.
Meme-style dogwhistling actually relies on unwitting "carrier" intermediaries to spread and normalize the ideology. You see the same technique a lot with anti-trans memes too ("I Sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter" is a common one that gets often repeated by non-transphobes).
By posting, upvoting and laughing, "normies" (emotionally secure people) play into the propagandists hands. A dogwhistle is not just the meme itself, but the entire social scenario around it. The real target of the whistle will see upvotes and laughter as reinforcement that the "unspoken ideas" espoused in it are true (there are a few in this thread).
“I Sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter” to me sounds like it makes fun of made up tumblr genders.
Anyway, I guess I don't see it the way you do. I think it's a lot of over analysis that turns people into censorship/word police. I don't prefer absolute censorship because it puts discussions to death. I'd rather this is out there and talked about rather than removed to be only in corners of the internet where these "incels" would gather alone, further removed from society.
If you think it's problematic, by all means do report it.
Again, this isn't just some arbitrary opinion I hold, it is actual Incel propaganda. You are welcome to spread it wherever you please, I just thought that you might want to be made aware.
Thanks for the details you provided though, it was informative and might affect the next time I post something like this (maybe I'll add some kind of disclaimer or something).
my issue isn't even the blame, it's the delusional self-deprecation