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[-] ExotiqueMatter@lemmygrad.ml 21 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago)

In order to refill the tank of a starship in orbit, they would need to launch at least 15 additional starships back to back, i.e. at least 15 launches have to be carried out all without issues, probably more for redundancy just in case, and it has to be done fast because since the fuel is cryogenic (methane Lox) it boil off over time and has to be dumped overboard.

And all of that is assuming they can even get the starship orbit capable in the first place, which they haven't been able to do at all.

fUel eFfICiEnCY.

[-] BodyBySisyphus@hexbear.net 14 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago)

Elon's got a pretty consistent track record with this sort of thing, though. Just the wrong kind.

to-the-moonexplosion

[-] redchert@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 9 hours ago

He wanted to land on Mars in 2023.

[-] LaughingLion@hexbear.net 9 points 16 hours ago

once they get it 80% fueled china be like "oops sorry one of our satellites destabilized and booped your rocket our bad"

[-] ProfessorOwl_PhD@hexbear.net 8 points 15 hours ago

*Right before they start refuelling China be like "your rocket is in the way of our satellite" but Elon insists they'll be done in time. Once they get it 80% fueled the rocket explodes, clearing the way for the satellite to pass through unscathed.

[-] purpleworm@hexbear.net 38 points 20 hours ago

I'm not a science guy, but isn't fuel efficiency like the most central issue of rocket science?

[-] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 10 points 14 hours ago

Anything to improve specific impulse. Making the fuel better, optimizing combustion, nozzle geometry, etc etc. This is all way more important than basically any other aspect of a rocket, as far as making the rocket go from point A to point B is concerned.

[-] umbrella@lemmy.ml 25 points 19 hours ago

lets just stop advancing tech, because doing what we are now, but more, is easier.

[-] Hexamerous@hexbear.net 11 points 16 hours ago

Yhe bro, just one more rocket bro. Please, it's a different engine configuration this time bro. It's different heat shilds bro. just trus me bro just bro different trajectory different more money bro just $10bn more bro its different please

[-] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 68 points 1 day ago

The rocket equation means that even a modest improvement in the efficiency of the fuel or combustion is worth an exponential improvement in payload mass. What that means in practice is that if you can squeeze out improvements in your propulsion that make it 5% better, it's equivalent to making your whole payload much more than 5% lighter (exactly how much depends on where you started, but it easily could be 20%).

The math behind this is actually really cool. The intuitive explanation is that making your payload lighter is the same as just adding more fuel (the mass ratio gets larger). If you think about what happens as you add more and more fuel, you'd expect that you'd eventually reach a point where nearly all the additional fuel you're adding is spent on pushing other fuel rather than the payload. Only the last bit of fuel in the tank is spent only accelerating payload, so the tradeoff between using fuel to push fuel vs pushing payload is inevitable, but the tradeoff means that there's diminishing returns to improving the mass ratio.

So think about how much money is spent trying to make rockets lighter. Making propulsion technology more efficient is exponentially as important. These people hate science.

[-] KoboldKomrade@hexbear.net 19 points 20 hours ago

And this is literal physics 1 stuff. We were tasked to come up with the rocket equation basically on our own, with minimal setup. Like we walked in and we tasked with it ~before~ the lecture on it. He walked around with the TAs helping us along. Even my groupwas able to give a good answer. With a level of physics described by KSP, and we were like C-B students at best. Its so basic I'd expect the "average" (willing) person to be able to understand the concepts.

Deriving that really was a fun moment, because even though we didn't get it all by ourselves, it felt like we ~could~ have given a bit of time. Really made me feel like I had passed some basic level of understanding of how the world works. I couldn't tell you the equation at this point, but I don't work with rockets, physics, or much advanced math daily. Really a joke that I feel more qualified then these clowns.

[-] quarrk@hexbear.net 6 points 18 hours ago

You should pursue a physics degree if possible, if you haven’t already. It’s that for four years (plus stress but that’s normal)

[-] LaughingLion@hexbear.net 10 points 16 hours ago

lowest rate of employment after graduation of any other degree currently. there is a higher rate of employment in their field of study for journalists than physicists and its not even close

[-] quarrk@hexbear.net 2 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago)

Correct, there aren’t that many jobs with the title of “physicist.” It’s very employable however, if one is willing to branch out into applied fields like engineering. I.e I don’t think there are many impoverished physicists (by education) at least in the west. It’s the path I took at least.

Education always has a tension between abstract advancement of knowledge (academia) and application. In the capitalist countries, the latter will always win out. I don’t think it is a bad choice to learn about something that both interests you and sets you up for employment, even if your employment won’t directly fall within that area.

[-] PorkrollPosadist@hexbear.net 25 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 22 hours ago)

Differential equations are hard. Let's just make it bigger. blob-no-thoughts

[-] Posadas@hexbear.net 19 points 22 hours ago
[-] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 9 points 15 hours ago

The nice thing in KSP is that you can add more fuel in a much less punishing way than IRL. You can add radial tanks to a stage and jettison them when empty. This still only makes your mass ratio larger rather than improving specific impulse (i.e. fuel efficiency) so it has diminishing returns, but you at least don't have to haul around the mass of the empty tanks. IRL, there's various reasons why you can't get away with that, so it's an even bigger problem.

[-] PorkrollPosadist@hexbear.net 3 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago)

Setting all the other issues aside, this strategy seems a lot more effective in Kerbal Space Program than it is in real life due to the dry mass of "liquid fuel" tanks and engines in the game being a lot higher than they should be (3-8 times higher, according to modders who have "corrected" this). The gains from dropping this mass are over-exaggerated as a result.

[-] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 2 points 9 hours ago

You probably already know, but I found out about orthogrids in rocket tanks recently. I saw the inside of a fuel tank in AlphaPhoenix's latest video (wait I just realized he never shows it here, maybe he edited it out?) and it's really cool how they make the surface rigid with as little structural support as possible with thin, vertical struts that run across the back of the surface of the tank.

[-] HexReplyBot@hexbear.net 1 points 9 hours ago

I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:

[-] OgdenTO@hexbear.net 12 points 21 hours ago

Just one more lane bro

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[-] i_drink_bleach@hexbear.net 27 points 21 hours ago

Ahh yes... "Starship." That piece of crap that has only managed to deliver a flaming banana to the Indian Ocean at mach 10. Once. The rest of the time it breaks up into a debris field before it can even manage that much. Yeah, I'm sure that'll happen any day now. Right around the same time as FSD that was set to be rolling out about 10 years ago.

But no, let's rediscover rocket science from first principles because the last 60 years of established doctrine don't "move fast and break things" enough. Absolute fucking morons.

I'm also reminded of that 1950s slogan of "Energy so cheap you won't even meter it!" Yeah still waiting on that one too 75 years later.

[-] Beaver@hexbear.net 79 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

It is hard to overstate how delusional it is to think that chemical rockets could ever compete with nuclear thermal. It's in the same category as scoffing at computers because you can just hire more people with slide rules to do your calculations.

[-] joaomarrom@hexbear.net 32 points 1 day ago

oh my god what a fucking COOL ASS website, instant firefox pinned link honestly

[-] Beaver@hexbear.net 40 points 1 day ago

This is what the web was like when it was actually good.

[-] GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net 27 points 23 hours ago

Damn i miss websites made by just one person. You can feel human personality in the writing style. It's fun to read cause it wasnt written by someone at work

[-] Goun@lemmy.ml 23 points 1 day ago

I fucking miss the web

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[-] Keld@hexbear.net 32 points 1 day ago

I know what you mean but a fun fact here is that the people with the slide rules had the job title of "computer", what they did was "computing".

[-] barrbaric@hexbear.net 23 points 1 day ago

casually linking to project rho

Please, I had plans later! ooooooooooooooh

[-] Beaver@hexbear.net 18 points 1 day ago

Hehehe, enjoy the rabbit hole maya-devious

[-] joaomarrom@hexbear.net 37 points 1 day ago

the delivery of propellant to LEO that I endorse:

cocktail cool-zone

[-] InappropriateEmote@hexbear.net 28 points 1 day ago

Despite being a bit of an astronomy nerd, my brain still initially read that as Law Enforcement Officers (rather than Low Earth Orbit) and for the tiniest fraction of a second I thought Musk was directing SpaceX to give rockets to NYPD or some shit.

[-] ThermonuclearEgg@hexbear.net 7 points 15 hours ago

In context, I support this reading more do-not-do-this

[-] NuraShiny@hexbear.net 33 points 1 day ago

While this is a blow to space travel, I am very glad that the US is not yet crazy enough to allow Elon to make a nuclear engine.

[-] Damarcusart@hexbear.net 25 points 22 hours ago

It's probably more that they are scared the technology will threaten fossil fuels than any actual concern about Elon fucking things up.

[-] EatPotatoes@hexbear.net 7 points 17 hours ago

Doubt it would really. We've already had nuclear submarines, aircraft carriers and Arctic icebreakers, which are just niche use cases that justify the cost of the nuclear bit.

The bourgeois aren't afraid of new technologies. As long as they control infrastructure and policy, their fossil fuel rents are secure and will seize the opportunity for new rents. They permitted states to spend several billion on nuclear R&D as a centralised rentier-friendly fallback for the inevitable drop in fossil fuel resource quality. Unless we're talking about urban myths like cold fusion or perpetual motion, several approaches and technologies have been exhaustively attempted. Items like MSRs or hybrid fusion, which were previously mothballed, are being revisited worldwide.

Renewables have outpaced nuclear in the meantime when it comes to the sole goal of curtailing fossil fuel demand. No steam islands, low O&M, and turnaround time short enough for a learning effect to drive down costs. China are breaking emissions records year on year because of the ability to scale up solar in a fraction of the time of new nuclear builds. It's not technology suppression; there is just no technology that adequately displaces fossil fuels in a time frame that actually matters. Only curtailing demand with sane socialist planning.

[-] NuraShiny@hexbear.net 2 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago)

I think the fundamental difference between a nuclear sub or other ship and a nuclear rocket would be where things can go wrong. If a nuclear boat has a reactor problem, that reactor problem stays on or under the water, pretty much localized.

With a nuclear rocket engine, it's likely to fail inside the atmosphere and in a way where it fails catastropically that doesn't even necessarily involve the engine itself being the cause. One faulty heat shielding tile? Congrats, your rocket disintegrated on re-entry and spread fissile material in the upper atmosphere for hundreds or thousands of miles.

That's why I think nuclear engines specifically for space travel are a bad idea. The only way to make them not a problem is if you assemble them in space and the ships with them are never leaving space, while getting the fissile material from, like, the moon. Which is something we are decades away from even entertaining as a species.

[-] EatPotatoes@hexbear.net 2 points 12 hours ago

Yeah nobody is really proposing launching them in the atmosphere. I hope lol

And I further agree the thing is a pointless waste. Robots with a few solar panels and RTGs do the job. Sending people into space has been an aerospace scam since the 70s.

[-] NuraShiny@hexbear.net 1 points 6 hours ago

Yea, see, I have no faith in them not trying to do exactly that. Any such engine for the next several decades would need to survive at least one flight out of our atmosphere and I do not trust SpaceX with that.

[-] NuraShiny@hexbear.net 2 points 14 hours ago

That's what we call a mixed blessing I suppose. I really don't want Elon near fissile material except if the scenario involves getting pricked by an umbrella.

[-] barrbaric@hexbear.net 15 points 22 hours ago

Musk wasn't involved IIRC, Draco was a DARPA/NASA/Lockheed project (also some company called BWX Technologies I've never heard of that I assume is involved with the nuclear enrichment or something).

[-] NuraShiny@hexbear.net 3 points 15 hours ago

With the trajectory of NASA, SpaceX would be who makes it if they ever start such a project again.

Unless SpaceX gets ousted from government contracts for being incompetent.

[-] LangleyDominos@hexbear.net 25 points 23 hours ago

nuclear-electric rockets are woke. we need space x rockets that roll coal and have a dixie horn.

[-] Mardoniush@hexbear.net 22 points 23 hours ago

Me in KSP insisting to my GF that I can "eyeball" that single burn from LKO to a Jool Aerobreake.

If I had a nickel for every time the US cancelled a thermal nuclear engine program, I'd have two nickels, which isn't very much but it's weird that it's happened twice.

[-] QuillcrestFalconer@hexbear.net 28 points 1 day ago

Are you technically delivering the propellent to LEO if you blow up in LEO?

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this post was submitted on 19 Jul 2025
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